Inflammatory posts

[curtschu]

I stand corrected on Emerald. I guess what I am saying is I don't want us to go to the guide system by default as it appears from the DEP doc.

You are right the sites that are open by this method are not going to change. those are dead horses.

Lets all work together to keep access efforts moving forward with the membership desires being kept in the forefront of the effort.
If all the members of the NSS-CDS and NACD were OK with things there would not be so much WHINNING on the internet as you like to point out.

How dare you tell me to go away. I paid my membership to both agencies and I want the volunteers to work in my interest to keep sites open. I also think they should know what the membership thinks and this forum is for us to do just that. When circumstances allow I will be one of the volunteers too and will expect the members to let me know their feelings.

[Ken Hill]

Did you not see this?

Cave diving advocates have expressed a desire to expand the number of areas where cave diving is allowed and have suggested that guided tours and restricting use to those who meet certain proficiency standards may be a way to meet this need. Recreation providers should work with cave diving groups to see if there are ways to safely increase opportunities for this activity in ways that do not degrade the resource.

We are the ones that thought up the idea of restricted access. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. .

Curtschu,
You elected to quote my reference to the seven year old DEP "Florida's Statewide Comprehensive Outdoor Plan 2000." a 229 page report in which cave diving got the ONE paragraph referenced. So after the floods of 1998 when this report was started and 1999 where the ONLY places to dive were Ginnie (Private $18/day), Peacock ($5/day) , LR (free), Telford (free) Madison (private $20/day) Manatee ($5/day) Telford (free wheels and tires for the locals.)

Your "hat in hand" comment that tells me that you don't have a clue as to how hard people worked to get cave diving recognized. Another point , there is no "restricted access" to any of the dive sites we enjoy. There is a requirement to meet the published and accepted diver training standards to the sites in question. Don't you think the states lawyers doing the "due diligence" work would look up and TAKE NOTE OF THOSE STANDARDS.

Do you think their lawyers referenced past legislation introduced after the 24 fatalities in 1974 when there was serious talk about outlawing cave diving in Florida. Perhaps your "hat in hand" comment refers to the response from the NACD and the NSS-CDS which created the cave and cavern training programs which started in 1976. Would you agree "restricted access" of those days led to what we enjoy now!

I can honestly say every state rep and park employee I talked went out of their way listen. Some helped more than others but they all tried to offer their services as best as they could. Learn the history of what happened then comment. /Ken


PS I often wonder about the poor timing of the FOIA request. Before it, both the opening of Cheryl and Emerald were in play. Now we only have Emerald.

[OFG-1]

I stand corrected on Emerald. I guess what I am saying is I don't want us to go to the guide system by default as it appears from the DEP doc.

You are right the sites that are open by this method are not going to change. those are dead horses.

Lets all work together to keep access efforts moving forward with the membership desires being kept in the forefront of the effort.
If all the members of the NSS-CDS and NACD were OK with things there would not be so much WHINNING on the internet as you like to point out.

How dare you tell me to go away. I paid my membership to both agencies and I want the volunteers to work in my interest to keep sites open. I also think they should know what the membership thinks and this forum is for us to do just that. When circumstances allow I will be one of the volunteers too and will expect the members to let me know their feelings.

Well, I didn't tell you to go away. I said go somewhere else, as in find somewhere else to dive. (This damn english language is tough) There are dozens of non restricted access caves to dive, why complain about the 10 or less that have entry requirements, until you run out of things to see?

And, you pay your dues. So what? Does that mean that you are expecting a cookie? You also vote for leadership, and the leadership that is elected responds for the organization. They speak for the desires of the membership. That is (sadly) how a representative democracy works. Both the NACD and NSS-CDS have email adresses posted, you could email the directors directly with your concerns, but you prefer to hash it out in a public forum, perhaps with the hopes of swaying opinion. Well here is a hint for you, it doesn't.

My point is that lip service is just that. If you don't like the situation, go out and actually spend your free time and money doing something.

As I stated in posts before, get a group together, set up a project (Cindy can help you with this), there are systems that need to be relined, run for a director's chair (then you can spend your time and energy listening to everyone second guess how you act). Get in touch with Kelly and try to get a site open.

Or, to qoute the eloquent Mr. Bill Gavin, "shut up and go diving". That is now what I will do.

[Gary]

Hey guys - I'd hate to remind you: this is the thread where we were warned to stop discussing this subject. "Inflamatory Posts" was a warning subject not a new thread to continue fighting in.

[curtschu]

We coud not have it better in anyway we are in a upopia for cave diving paradise there is no room for improvement and every system that can be dove by QUALIFIED RECREATIONAL cave divers is open to them. There is no reason to try and educate the Public and Private Owners of the resourse of the vast improvements in training and equipment since the 70's. There is no reason to show how through our training and education efforts we are showing the new generation of divers how to protect the resourse and still enjoy it. I'm out of this one.

Curt

Kaizen Japanese term that means continuous improvement, taken from words 'Kai' means continuous and 'zen' means improvement

[Angie Reim]

Sorry guys. I kept hoping this thread would fix itself. It almost did. Some good discussion and points were mixed in with the foolishness so it remained for the lurking readers. Sigh.....must lock it now. No one person's fault -- I just can't foresee it going any where productive at this point. I'll leave it and not delete it because there is some good information mixed in it at places.