Inflammatory posts

[FW]

Perhaps the best way is membership in any or all of the different parks CSO programs. Peacock is a cave divers CSO, therefore it has a cave divers say as to what goes on there. What do you think would happen if 500 cave divers joined the Wakulla CSO ... would their be a balance of power shift? Would that CSO have cave diving items on their meeting agenda? Could there be more cave diving with more appropriate access rules allowed? There is a whole new generation of cave divers that need to become involved. Harm is caused when their voices are not heard! Gains are made when their ideas are channeled into thinking within a direction that works within the bureaucracy? My message is closed but the topic needs to continue.


/Ken

That is a great suggestion, but they need to be aware that things don't happen overnight

[Ken Hill]

That is a great suggestion, but they need to be aware that things don't happen overnight

Very true Forrest, even years is almost an understatement! /K

[DeWayne]

And who is surprised?

Can we not create a separate forum where anything goes and everyone can be as arrogent, nasty and stupid as they want?

Then most of the forum users can stay in the main forum for useful, courteous information and only go this "other place" whenever they choose.

But such a place already exists (Karl's forum). It is interesting to note that despite the lack of moderation and cencorship that everyone continually complains about, there is very little traffic making use of that panacea of internet exchange. I guess when everyone else can be as arrogant, nasty, and as stupid as they want in return, the prospect of true freedom of speech looses it appeal.

[OneBrightGator]

We let that thread stay open for that very reason. It wasn't untill it became a "anti state park" thread, and was getting personal, that it was locked.

Could you please site which post(s) were anti state park?

My issues are with the regulations at this one particular park, which were set by information provided by cave divers, not state park employees (at least that's the impression I have). Just because I wish things could be "better" doesn't mean I am anti state park, much to the contrary, I am very pro-state park.

[Kelly Jessop]

My issues are with the regulations at this one particular park, which were set by information provided by cave divers, not state park employees .

Actually you'd be surprised how savvy people who are in recreational / resource management can be when it comes to understanding a particular activity. Even some of their own manuals are very specific with a clear enlightenment about diving activities,that didn't come from the cave diving community.

Good to see you Saturday.

[bletso]

I locked 2 threads based on this, and removed another.

My money rests with the next generation of cave divers and so what if they are aggressive ... that's good. Us old guys could and should keep a "choker collar" on them until they're ready to meet and greet the state reps and park managers. It's a mistake to stifle enthusiasm. We're supposed to be here to mentor not only diving but the public perception, governance and discipline of our sport. My .02

/Ken

My whiners comment was just me being silly. Sorry if I offended.

First, the last place I would put my money is with the next generation of cave divers, particularly if they take up diving with the same attitude as they do in the main realm of life period. But then, they probably wouldn't last long and Darwin would win and the we as group would loose.

Cave diving does take a certain amount of maturity to survive. Training isn't the only criteria to sucessful cave or technical diving.

Second, Angie, your whiners comment was appropriate. It actually relates to my first paragraph. The next generation is more prone to it.
They, (as a generalized group) like to whine and complain rather than do the hard work proper training takes to survive in the alien environment we so love.

The number of newbe's I see who run off to easy environments to take certain advance courses over taking them local far outnumber those who take their training is the more hostile local environments. It shows. The next generation does definately prefer the short cut method.


Dale

[Ken Hill]

First, the last place I would put my money is with the next generation of cave divers, particularly if they take up diving with the same attitude as they do in the main realm of life period. But then, they probably wouldn't last long and Darwin would win and the we as group would loose.

Cave diving does take a certain amount of maturity to survive. Training isn't the only criteria to sucessful cave or technical diving.

Dale, I see your point but disagree with what you said. I believe that the mentoring of new divers is not only helping with their progression in the water but also to ensure the future management of the sport.

OneBrtGator wrote, "My issues are with the regulations at this one particular park, which were set by information provided by cave divers, not state park employees ." His concern hits the nail on the head as seen in the 229 page "Florida's Statewide Comprehensive Outdoor Plan 2000." In that whole document Cave Diving can be found in one paragraph.


FLORIDA’S OUTDOOR RECREATION VISION

Florida’s ideal outdoor recreation system will be a diverse, balanced system of outdoor recreation resources and suppliers that provides the citizens of the state and visitors--regardless of their location in the state, economic status, age, gender, ethnic background, or physical or mental disability--with a full range of outdoor recreation opportunities. The system will be coordinated at the state level with all agencies working in harmony, and with ample opportunity for public participation in decision making. It will have an educational component to promote understanding and appreciation of the state’s outdoor recreation resources.

Non-Trail Recreation

The following recommendations were drafted in response to perceived needs expressed by the public for specific types of recreation or support facilities. All parts of the state may not have needs in these specific areas. Recreation providers should review the recommendations and evaluate local needs prior to taking any action.

4. Cave diving is an activity engaged in by a relatively small number of Floridians and tourists. Because of the dangers involved, and the concern that divers might damage sensitive underwater resources, there are a number of potentially suitable areas where this activity is prohibited. Cave diving advocates have expressed a desire to expand the number of areas where cave diving is allowed and have suggested that guided tours and restricting use to those who meet certain proficiency standards may be a way to meet this need. Recreation providers should work with cave diving groups to see if there are ways to safely increase opportunities for this activity in ways that do not degrade the resource.


Florida's Statewide Comprehensive Outdoor Plan 2000 is the sole reference for actions by the DEP regarding cave diving activities. The limited attention given to cave diving and the latitude it gives to the individual park managers should be a clue on how hard we have to work. The last paragraph tells the park manager it is all right to have cave divers become a part of their process. The best way I know how to do that is for cave divers to become an important part of the Park's CSO's. Therefore Gator, join that parks CSO and recruit other like minded people to do the same so are in a position to suggest a rewrite of the policies. To not do that makes any complaint you make about access a waste of time. You have to get involved so get involved!

/Ken

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/Parks/pla...SCORP-2000.pdf

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/Parks/OIR...Chap6SCORP.doc

[Angie Reim]

I locked 2 threads based on this, and removed another.

My money rests with the next generation of cave divers and so what if they are aggressive ... that's good. Us old guys could and should keep a "choker collar" on them until they're ready to meet and greet the state reps and park managers. It's a mistake to stifle enthusiasm. We're supposed to be here to mentor not only diving but the public perception, governance and discipline of our sport. My .02

/Ken

My whiners comment was just me being silly. Sorry if I offended.

..............Second, Angie, your whiners comment was appropriate. It actually relates to my first paragraph. The next generation is more prone to it.
They, (as a generalized group) like to whine and complain rather than do the hard work proper training takes to survive in the alien environment we so love.

The number of newbe's I see who run off to easy environments to take certain advance courses over taking them local far outnumber those who take their training is the more hostile local environments. It shows. The next generation does definately prefer the short cut method.......


Dale

Dale I appreciated the support, however; I truly was just trying to be funny/silly with making a play on words.

If you wish to make blanket statements that all younger people are whiners, that is YOUR statement and NOT MINE. Some people are whiners and it has nothing to do with chronological age. I personally have no interest in a flame war as such. Yes younger people are different than those of my generation. I had a different upbringing. It's the same for every generation and so and so on. But each has their own trials by fire too.

So I take each person as they come.

That being said - I have noticed in my own children, who are teenagers, that there is a set tendency toward avoiding hard work. Then it hit me!!! Are not many time-saving ideas and inventions based upon that very fundamental human drive? Maybe it's a stage we all must go through! Sooner or later maturity comes and we recognize there is no getting around it for certain goals, but imagine if the internet, et al were around when I was young. Awesome time saving tools. Thank God I'm old enough to shift through the fact from fiction (mostly). 8)

Angie

[Angie Reim]

FWIW, I think that Kelly Jessop has it right. Getting involved with state park CSO's has got to be a seriously positive and helpful step toward getting dive sites open and rules/regulations palatable for cavedivers.

The local authorities for each park have a surprisingly liberal range of choices that can be made for their own sites. Possibly because no site in nature is exactly the same as another. Each needs feedback to help make decisions regarding the management of a site.

Ya'll think about that.

[Gary]

That being said - I have noticed in my own children, who are teenagers, that there is a set tendency toward avoiding hard work. Then it hit me!!! Are not many time-saving ideas and inventions based upon that very fundamental human drive? Maybe it's a stage we all must go through! Sooner or later maturity comes and we recognize there is no getting around it for certain goals.

It's not limited to children and we adults are not immune to it either. I mean: how many people of our generation still walked to school in the snow, with no shoes on - up-hill - both ways. We could have done so but who would walk when we could ride the bus. Who would wait for the bus rather then ride in the car.

Why would you work hard to get access if you can simply whine your way around restrictions. Why work with the park if you think you can change the rules that govern them. Why take a hard course when you can take and easy one. Why learn to swim before buying a scooter. Why dive anywhere but Ginnie and Peacock if it takes time and effort to get in anwhere else.

There were even complaints about Ginnie when they started requiring DPV trainning. And again when Intro cave divers weren't being allowed in on doubles. Everyone was all set to quit the agency they were with and move to the one that didn't have the same restriction (never mind the same rule had been around for over 20 years) or anything rather then actually get qualified to dive on doubles.

One agency did mention they had a "Discressionary Apprentice" work around and another agency invented one to keep their divers happy.

See whinning works.

They certainly weren't going to find some other place to dive - going somewhere else would have taken too much effort.