Let us know the result when you get an answer...Originally Posted by wingman
hint: You need GUE Training to even think of getting in the water.
Welcome to the Cave Diver's Forum.
Let us know the result when you get an answer...
hint: You need GUE Training to even think of getting in the water.
Joe
Joe-- you are correct. I should have checked in myself before posting. Here's the team position: during most of the 1990’s the WKPP accepted certifications from other agencies and then trained them in the specific protocols necessary to dive with the WKPP. This took a great deal of time and there was a lot of turnover within the project. The GUE cave curriculum covers the majority of the protocols necessary to dive with the WKPP allowing us to focus on the work instead. We do not allow crossovers.
I have a real problem with WKPP's control over these public resources, together with the complex relationship between them, GUE and Halcyon. Too many fo the same figures show up on the boards of all three. Reminds me in a way of Halliburton. And at the end of the day, GUE instructors (who charge a pretty hefty rate compared to other agencies) are the gatekeeper for us to get access to these resources.
Then when you DO pay them, buy their gear etc, you're expected to act as free labour carting their tanks around. This I don't really have a problem with - the people who do this know exactly what they're letting themselves in for. If that's what gets them off, so be it.
It's a complicated setup. GUE training is undeniably excellent. But it isn't SO good that they can treat anyone else with the level of disdain that they do.
The bad old days of GI3 are slowly falling away (I met Jarrod in a parking lot recently and he seemed like a really nice guy) - but that philosophy of disdainful exclusivity lives on. I wouldn't mind it so much if it wasn't for the way that they treat Wakulla, Indian etc as their little preserve, where gaining access requires a huge transfer of wealth from me to the GUE instructors, and Halcyon employees and shareholders.
It's a little like that tree we don't get to hear falling in the woods - if I can't ever see a cave, does it exist? An existential dilemma I leave for the cave philosophers of future - I just get irritated having to read their exclusionary little pieces of self-praise. In the interim, I'd prefer not to hear that Wakulla exists - it just irritates me.
Surely I'm not the only person who feels this way? And sorry, Mike - but seriously, isn't this another classic case where Casey can't even be bothered to come over to here and TDS and post himself? Who made him God?
OK, rant over.
Andrew Ainslie
Almost extinct cave diver
Maybe Casey is busy?
The reality is that even if we don't like the current setup of the agreement with WKPP and the state, it is an agreement that is working currently.
I hate seeing that there are fake carrots hanging out there for those that truly just want to dive a nice big cave, but the reality is that even those who go through the jumps and hoops don't get to explore. They get to support the exploration, which may be all they want.
I would rather an exclusive team of divers have access to a site as long as they are ACTIVE in exploration and not sitting on a permit (which takes place also...). It may not be the "best scenario" to you and I, but the reality is that the cave IS being explored and possibly could be saved from destruction because of their actions.
Maybe one day when the powers that be at WKPP get bored with Wakulla they will relax on their requirements and possibly even work a deal similar to the access at other locations in the area. Maybe not...
This is where we come in... Those of us that are not WKPP/GUE divers that would like to have access to a state owned resource. The process is hard and tricky to get the state to open up access and not piss them off enough that they kill access altogether. I leave that kind of work to those who may be better at that kind of thing... Like those involved with Emerald as of late...
The reality is that there are plenty of beautiful caves with unexplored passages waiting for a diver to lay line. Until I can no longer find these opportunities, I am fine with them exploring and mapping that huge cave system under special permit, so long as they stay active and use the access that they have from the state.
Think of it this way... Many divers work hard to drag tanks for someone else 5000ft into a single cave system. Whereas you can work hard to drag your own tanks and explore your own list of cave(s) without the same hoops and financial investment.
Joe
He can't be that busy - he wrote it after all. It takes 30 seconds to post text once it's written. He simple feels it's beneath him to even visit this site.
Andrew Ainslie
Almost extinct cave diver
OK guys. We "relaxed" rule #6, but is isn't *totally* gone. Lets not allow this thread to get too hostile.
WKPP proved to the state that their system works, and works safely. Now the rest of us have to prove the same thing to them, and getting hostile will *NOT* help the efforts of the multi-agency group that got Emerald and Indian open.
OK, I'm done. Apologies if I came off a bit strong. And there's a difference between my opinions on the ethics and attitudes here, and the ahievement. I will say, it's one heluva achievement. That team is dedicated, and determined. Any 20 hour dive, 6 of which are active and deep, is pretty amazing. Adding 6000 feet of line in the process is incredible.
Hell, I'll be impressed with myself when I get to see EOL at Eagle's!!!
Andrew Ainslie
Almost extinct cave diver
Great to see...
So very cool to see everyone playing nice and sharing ideas - way to go!!!
Pat
"There are many intelligent species in the universe. They are all owned by cats." --Anonymous
Joe, you hit nail on the head. But, Andrew did as well. They do great work in the pursuuits of the important projects. But the attitude they're bullet proof and the rest of the world is a strok e kinda hits people the wrong way. Go figure.........
There's nothing like a leasurely cave did unless the team GI clones come bouncing in and take over. The last time I got as POed was the time a few of us drove 5 hours to rock climb. There was a group of the rudest Ausies I've ever met. Out of 7 climbs, they had gear set on 6 routes. There were only 4 of them and they got all mad when we inquired if we could "borrow" one of the routes. Just so happened the 7th route had a hornets nest on it. After one of our group accidentally knocked it loose trying to set a rope, (oops) we thumbed the climb and made an quick exit.
Too bad you can't find a good hornets nest when you need one while cave diving.
I'll be nice now, sorry for the mini-rant.
If cave diving were Star Wars, who would be Yoda?
Say what you want about GUE and DIR, but they have their "ducks in a row" .... I lost my nerve to continue cave diving ... I LOVE hearing what is going on in the cave diving world, but the risks out weighed the results for me ... I dove hard and fast for a couple of years (1996 - 1998) ... Seen a lot of cave in that sort period of time ... Maybe, that was my downfall ... Too much cave in a short period of time ... Anyway, it seems that George Irvine is out of the picture (and his harsh personality) ... So, is DIR and GUE getting their "fair shake"??? ... It seems to me that they have done a lot for safety and exploration in the sport ... Just my 1 1/2 cents
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks