A letter to the open water diving community from the NACD

I just had a friend who is taking a advanced nitrox class tell me he is doing his checkout at EN. Is this what you are referring to? I think even they should be sticking to Hudson grotto or something along these lines.

Gibby … Actually, I wasn’t referring to that class, but I was referring to the practice of taking divers without the proper training to Eagles Nest. I agree with you that there are much better sites to do the training at, which have much less temptation to enter into a situation which the diver isn’t properly trained (as stated in the NACD letter in the initial post). It’s too bad that more sites like Ward’s Sink aren’t open to provide better options for instructors to train deeper classes at.

I was a little busy with a class but my impression of EN is that it begins with a huge cavern though not OW; therefore, cavern class would be okay (I never managed to get far off the debris mound and into the cave proper. My buddy's light died). Am I missing something?

I won’t get into the Cavern Standards, for the definition of a cavern, and the Instructor Standards here (at this time), but in my opinion Eagles Nest is not an appropriate site for doing a Cavern Class. I would like to point out that much better sites are available for Cavern Training (Ginnie, Peacock, Orange Grove, Little River...)!

It’s my understanding that Eagles Nest was closed for a long time because of the deaths which occurred at the site. Some of these deaths could have been attributed to situations surrounding diving deep on air. Also, please keep in mind that Eagles Nest is in a remote location (pretty far back in the woods) and due to that fact it is a riskier dive site to take chances at.

It took a lot of hard work to get Eagles Nest reopened and I for one don’t want to see it closed again by having more deaths and accidents at the site. If people who dive there have the proper training (Full Cave and Trimix); I believe their will be less of a chance for an accident. Here’s a policy, stated by the NACD and the NSS-CDS, shortly before Eagles Nest was reopened:

Eagles Nest Access Policy

Eagle's Nest Sink will be open on July 1, 2003! The NSS-CDS and NACD have worked for over a year with the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FFWCC) to re-open the site for cave diving. Many thanks to Larry Green, Ken Hill, John Jones, and Michael Poucher for making this happen!

Access will be through the Chassahowitzka Wildlife Management Area. Divers must check in at an iron ranger at the entrance and pay the $3.00 daily fee, or you can purchase a yearly Wildlife Management Area pass for $26.50 at most hunting supply stores, Wal-Mart or on-line at: http://floridaconservation.org/license/index.html. Either the day pass stub or the Management area pass should be displayed on the dash so that law enforcement can see them while you are in the water.

The road to the sink is not improved and four-wheel drive is a must. Fish and Wildlife is not responsible for getting your vehicle out if it gets stuck. They intend to make improvements by the end of this year to allow two-wheel drive access, but until then, they ask that drivers stay on the existing road and not to wallow out the holes. This will just make repairs more extensive, more costly, and take more time. The roads will have to closed while the repairs are made.

This site is deep and a very advanced dive. The NACD and NSS-CDS recommends that you have the following MINIMUM qualifications to dive:

1. Full Cave Certification.
2. Trimix certification.
3. Appropriate experience with deep cave dives.

In addition we highly recommend that first time divers go with someone familiar and experienced with the site. It took over a year to open Eagle's Nest, but accidents due to irresponsible divers could close it overnight. Lets all be safe and Eagle's Nest will be there, and open, when we are ready to dive it.

http://www.nsscds.com/othersites.html

Also, look on the Cave Diver’s Forum at the Cave Conditions page under Eagles Nest - Chassahowitzka
http://www.cavediver.net/springs/spring_frm.htm
Here you will see the following:
Opened to Trimix Certified Cave Divers Only

[Angie Reim]

I agree. There are far better places to teach a class. I am not an instructor so I can not judge the class circumstances that you all were discussing and that wasn't my intent. I do know when I took Cavern class that I would've been scared witless in the EN cavern but I tend to be more slow going than most folks. Now the EN cavern *seems* like no big deal EXCEPT for the depth issue, which IS a big deal. Regarding NSS-CDS recommendations and the agreement with the State:

'Them's the rules'. Arguing with wildlife officials is like arguing with any other cop, it's stupid and you will lose.

I had forgotten about all the trouble that happened around EN and so forth.

I'll go back to my hidey-hole now.

[firedawg226]

I as an instructor am adamate about safety. I constantly tell OW students during class how dangerous overhead is and that they should not be entered without proper training and equipment. I show them my cave rig, and describe what it takes to get to the overhead level. Yes, i do try to scare them, and some of you may find it wrong however if scaring some students causes them to think and stay out of caves and wrecks till they pony up and get the training and gear they need so be it. Taking classes to Ginnie and Vortex is great. I think that at least at Vortex the gate should be moved closer to the entrance, vastley limiting the amount of penetration and depth. As i stated above about scaring students some may view it as wrong but if it saves a life or two how wrong is it.
In the last year or so i have seen countless divers of the open water type down in vortex and at Morrison. I've tried to get them to leave and have gotten into some confrontations on the surface. You can try to tell some of these people that you are trying to save thier life and some will listen. Others take the i'm a big boy approach and they are ready to accept the consquinces of thier actions. Still others take the i'm certified and i paid to dive here and by god i'm gonna do what i want cause it's my right.
Education is the key and i assume that all are in agreement on that. But please tell how you educate someone that believes that because they have a c-card and have 16+ dives under thier belt that they are not ready to venture into an enviorment that can kill them.
Not long ago i ran into a fellow at a local dive shop that i was working at. This guy has doubles, reels, and the whole nine yards. He introduces himself as diver "A" NACD,NSSCDS, blah,blah. He starts babbling about dives he has done, but cannot give any details about the caves he has been in. I asked to see his c-cards, but he does not have them, but will provide them in a couple of days. He shows up but he cant find them so i tell him the only way that we can provide further training is with his cards. He became very irratated and actually thought that i should take him at face value without proof.
The point im trying to make is, where do we start. How do we avoid lawsuits and fistfights while trying to save a life. How do you educate some one who believes themselves to be a scuba god.
Sorry for the ranting, the thread is a good one and it brought up those old gripes.

[Me]

I should have grabbed the dudes light and ESCORTED him out. (sigh)

Jean, your heart is in the right place; the exact thing almost ended up in criminal prosecution when Tyler Moon did that.

Harry Averill, while underwater at the opening, use to take their light, open it and dump out the batteries. He would hand them back their light and their loose batteries and swim off.

My favorite Harry story took place at Peacock about ten years ago. He physically pulled two open water divers out of the cave to the surface.

He pointed at the sign and yelled, "Don't you see that sign? 'No Open Water divers allowed!'"

One guy got all bowed up and said, "We're ADVANCED Open Water."

[Walter Pickel]

Also, look on the Cave Diver’s Forum at the Cave Conditions page under Eagles Nest - Chassahowitzka
http://www.cavediver.net/springs/spring_frm.htm

You can also use http://caves.tampadiving.com which has a history of observations as well as a few more sites.

[DeWayne]

Harry Averill, while underwater at the opening, use to take their light, open it and dump out the batteries. He would hand them back their light and their loose batteries and swim off.

You should have seen how he treated those poor unfortunate fools whose stray fin kicks found his mask. I have never witnessed anyone yank a fin off a foot as fast nor fling it as far as Harry did at Ginnie one day.

My favorite Harry story took place at Peacock about ten years ago. He physically pulled two open water divers out of the cave to the surface.

He pointed at the sign and yelled, "Don't you see that sign? 'No Open Water divers allowed!'"

One guy got all bowed up and said, "We're ADVANCED Open Water."

I remeber Harry telling me about that incident during our SI (following the fin fling IIRC). He had great respect for the caves, but little for those who would abuse them.

[sskasser]

My favorite Harry story took place at Peacock about ten years ago. He physically pulled two open water divers out of the cave to the surface.

He pointed at the sign and yelled, "Don't you see that sign? 'No Open Water divers allowed!'"

One guy got all bowed up and said, "We're ADVANCED Open Water."

ROFLMAO Would love to have seen that one!

I agree. There are far better places to teach a class.

Angie … I appreciate your honesty. I know of many guilty people on this forum. My point was that this is happening and can we maybe try to find a way to fix the problem.

My first consideration is that I don’t want any more accidents or deaths. Secondly, I don’t want the caves and cave divers to get a bad rap because of the accidents. Lastly, I don’t want our caves to be closed. We already have too many closed caves and I want to make positive progress here.

The first step is education. Maybe some divers aren’t aware of the site recommendations (Full Cave and Trimix).

The next step, that bothers me the most, is to prevent instructors from taking unqualified students to dive sites like Eagles Nest. No, I’m not trying to pick on anyone, but an instructor is to try to limit liability, not increase it! If PADI can regulate which sites a class can’t be taught at, why can’t the NSS-CDS and the NACD. An example would be “No Cavern Classes can be taught at Eagles Nest”. I already pay a lot of money for instructor insurance; can’t the cave agencies try to limit liability also?

[Gibby]

Hey chip.
For that to work the other agencies like IANTD, TDI or the others would have to be on board as well as spell out consequences for instructors who violate their rules. If the professional liability insurance companies and instruction agencies shared information a little more freely the instructors would think twice before violating the teaching regs.

As it stands now, if a instructor kills an open water student or two in a place like blue grotto and padi plus his insurance company drop him he can do a crossover and be teaching ssi the following month with a new insurance company.

What they need is a diving patriot act to encourage inter-agency communication.