Challenge question III

[Jay]

Good answers!!!!

A little more info and what happened in the next phase.

It was impossible to turn into the line as it was too close to the wall.

After using the scooter and leash as a pivot, the line could not be reached.
Diver one decided to tie off a reel to the scooter and stretch a little further and immediately found the line and retrieved the scooter, (clipping it off like a stage)

Diver 1 started a LD search from that point and found Diver 2 coming back towards him along the line after about 50 feet. Vis had improved to about 4-6" Diver 1 knew they were approaching a larger room with big sand piles but still did not know what had happened.

After touch contact signals to confirm both were ok and to head out, Diver 2 immediately took off, leaving diver 1 to follow along the line with less then 6" of vis.
After about another 50-100 feet, diver 1 heard Diver 2's scooter ahead of him, vis had increased to about 6". Diver 1 continued another 50 feet or so and the scooter sounded close but Diver 1 still had no vis and was wondering WTF?

Now what do you do?

[Cindy]

Check to make sure you didn't miss a Y or jump. You buddy may be off on another line. You might backtrack and if you find that is the problem I would put a line in with a arrow to show the way out. He should figure out he is on the wrong line and go back. If you have the line in for him at least he may may it out. If you are sure you are in the the right tunnel keep going down the line and exit. If he turned his scooter on he must have good vis or a death wish.... EIther way by the time you find the jump and chase him it will be too late for both of you.

[skip]

"Diver 2 immediately took off, leaving diver 1 to follow along the line with less then 6" of vis.
After about another 50-100 feet, diver 1 heard Diver 2's scooter ahead of him, vis had increased to about 6". Diver 1 continued another 50 feet or so and the scooter sounded close but Diver 1 still had no vis and was wondering WTF?

Now what do you do?"

stop, breathe, think.

sounds like maybe diver 2 is stirring up the silt and diver 1 is eating dust, er, silt. maybe there's been a cave-in, so that diver 2 is digging through? as long as you are on the line, making progress, best to just keep going. I'd hope that diver 2 would stop for some touch contact, an ok signal would be nice about now, or a line arrow indicating you are on the way out, but I'm not a scooter diver and from this challenge question I'm not so sure I want to be one!

I never thought of a missed jump or a T, as cindy did....not sure what that has to do with the continued poor viz, but dang, this is not a good situation!

-skip

[Webmaster]

You keep heading out. You're now moving slower in low-no vis and don't know how long it will take to get out, but you know it will be longer than coming in.

Assumes of course that A. you're on the right line, and B. that you're actually headed out. You don't really have time to deeply ponder the why's, you're pointed in the right direction as far as you know and you seem to be heading toward the sound of your buddy's scooter. Maybe he tried gunning it and ran into a mud bank or something. If he's off the line you would probably have to run into him to find him.

I'm ambivalent about placing an arrow, could help your buddy, could hurt. But, thinking short term only, if you could identify it (by feel since you might not be able to read written initials) as yours and you found some reason to think you needed to turn around to get out, you would know that you placed it when you encountered it again.

Not especialy familiar with scooter practices yet, but for the moment there it would seem that you would just need to keep swimming until you get enough vis/passage size to fire up the scooter. Or you get low enough on gas swimming that you have nothing to lose by trying to scooter out in less than ideal vis.

[Jay]

There is no good way to continue this thread except to tell what happened.

D1 suspected D2 was above him as he intermittently started and stopped the scooter to attract attention D1 tied off to the line with an arrow and followed the profile of the cave up towards the ceiling. After about 20 feet the vis cleared and D1 found D2 in a pocket of fairly clear water at the ceiling of the room. D2 wanted to wait for the vis to clear and D1 allowed a few minutes to pass. D1, still unaware of what had caused the silt out ‘encouraged’ D2 to go back to the line and head out. They were still 2200 feet or so back at 100 foot depth and D1 wanted to get going before too much gas was used as he thought he still had to contend with the cause of the silt out.

Once at the line, D2 again took off swimming with no touch contact. Vis had increased to 2-3 feet and D1 tried to keep his fins in sight as he OK’ed the line. There was several hundred feet of smaller passage before the next large room. Flow had picked up and vis was very slowly returning when D2 again shot off the line towards the ceiling. D1 tied off to the line and followed up. This big room had a much larger clear area at the top of a sand hill. D2 wanted to wait for the vis to clear up some more, but D1 was at 2000 psi and D2 was much less. D1 insisted on getting back to the line and heading out as the vis was sufficient to make good time swimming with line contact.

D2 swam off immediately down the line and after a minute or so D1 heard his scooter startup and vis went back to 6 inches or less. D1 continued performing a line drill for 300 + feet before the vis increased enough for a decent swim pace. He could hear D2’s scooter in the distance and eventually found him waiting in a spot where the vis was 20 feet. At this point the cave was large enough and vis was good enough for both divers to head out at maximum speed on the scooters. After several hundred feet vis returned to almost normal.

Deco obligation was met and after some spirited discussion in the basin the cause of the event unfolded.

D2’s scooter stuck on several times resulting in a Massive silt out. D2 had what is a common urge, get out of the silt to clear water. This can become a strong urge after a period of time in zero visibility. D2 was aware of what caused the issue but never communicated it to D1 inside the cave. He was content to find clear water to hang out in and wait for the silt to clear, but would not take the time to run a reel from the line to the clear spot.
Waiting for the silt to clear can be a good strategy in a high flow cave, but it has to balanced with the amount of air remaining and the exit time. D2 never had very good air consumption and his SAC rate would skyrocket to dangerous levels under stress or workload. In this case, he waited until his gas was dangerously low for the situation.
D2 was also reluctant to maintain touch contact on the exit and would swim as quickly as possible. Without maintaining buddy contact and with poor gas management, D2 was fortunate that no other incidents occurred on the exit. A loss of either scooter, a light, entanglement or any significant delay during the remainder of the exit would have forced D1 into sharing air with D2. At D2’s increased consumption rate under stress a significant delay could have been deadly.

[BabyDuck]

Once at the line, D2 again took off swimming with no touch contact.

D2 swam off immediately down the line and after a minute or so D1 heard his scooter startup and vis went back to 6 inches or less.

D2 was aware of what caused the issue but never communicated it to D1 inside the cave. He was content to find clear water to hang out in and wait for the silt to clear, but would not take the time to run a reel from the line to the clear spot.

D2 was also reluctant to maintain touch contact on the exit and would swim as quickly as possible. Without maintaining buddy contact and with poor gas management, D2 was fortunate that no other incidents occurred on the exit.

at first i thought all these threads were about challenge sink at peacock... wonderful idea for a series, cindy. thanks to everyone for their scenarios!

i have no experience at all with scooters except when my buds who have one allow me to caress it...BUT -

i would never again dive with a buddy who left me purposefully in the #### without touch contact. anyone can have an accident and lose buoyancy or screw up their scootering or whatever and silt things up, but if you *leave* me in it once, it will be the last time. and this person found you and then left you several times!! and because i'm vindictive, i would tell the story to everyone & try to see that their pool of buddies mysteriously dried up...

[RN]

i would never again dive with a buddy who left me purposefully in the sh^t without touch contact. anyone can have an accident and lose buoyancy or screw up their scootering or whatever and silt things up, but if you *leave* me in it once, it will be the last time. and this person found you and then left you several times!! and because i'm vindictive, i would tell the story to everyone & try to see that their pool of buddies mysteriously dried up...

I second this. I'd be pretty upset the first time D2 took off. The 2nd time would be the last time. As I read Jay's last post, I just kept wondering what D2 was doing. This is completely against what we're trained to do, yet D2 is doing it over and over again. No touch contact, leaving the line, scootering in low visilibility. D2 not only put himself in danger, but also D1. Not a good situation.

[jeandiver]

at first i thought all these threads were about challenge sink at peacock... wonderful idea for a series, cindy. thanks to everyone for their scenarios!

i have no experience at all with scooters except when my buds who have one allow me to caress it...BUT -

i would never again dive with a buddy who left me purposefully in the sh^t without touch contact. anyone can have an accident and lose buoyancy or screw up their scootering or whatever and silt things up, but if you *leave* me in it once, it will be the last time. and this person found you and then left you several times!! and because i'm vindictive, i would tell the story to everyone & try to see that their pool of buddies mysteriously dried up...

Er , who are you calling all dried up???
And caressing scooters now are we? Hmmm...

Da Bean

P.S. Sorry , I couldn't resist.
And hope you and Jamison are doing GREAT !!!!

As far as being left behind by a buddy , it hasn't happened to me yet. Nor have I left a buddy behind yet either. I only HOPE either doesn't happen.

[BabyDuck]

gotta caress something...and i know you'd never leave me purposefully in the stank!

[Jay]

D1 attempted to educate D2 about their diving attitude. That was unsuccessful and unfortunate.