Challenge Question

[BgDadddy]

I drilled a hole in my line arrows and put zip ties through the hole so I can tell my markers by touch.

Wow!! I really like that idea. I've heard of notching arrows, cutting a corner off, etc... I like your idea the best. I may shamelessly steal that idea if you don't mind...

Rick

[RN]

When would anyone swim deeper into the cave unless mistakenly? Something bad happens, dive's over, head out. Right? Place an arrow on the line and go. Then, oops, find a permanent line arrow pointing the other way. Turn around and grab your arrow on the way out. Why the long discussion on setting a line arrow pointing in? Wouldn't this only happen in error?


BTW, I mark my arrows with a drilled hole, too. No zip tie, though.

[FW]

I tend to agree with Cindy. Anymore marker types will just add to the confusion. Sheck Exley always taught the KISS principle. When things start going bad, the simpler the better.

A cookie, or clip on the line tells enough. Your buddy found the line, and *should* be on the way *out*.

FWIW, on the artwork above, it would be better to copy the slot angle design of the original arrow. They are known to stay on the line. I am not sure why the cookie didn't use the same slots as the arrow.

[Webmaster]

I doubt there is any real need, but if we were to create one I think it would need to be completely discernable from an arrow. Don't bash my artwork Forrest, it was a quick conceptual drawing in Paint.

Making your arrows unique is not a bad idea. Leaving them on the line when unsure of the way out (just going back to the original situation) would always be a bad idea I should think. Especially if it didn't get removed soon after.

In the situation Mike referred to, I thought he had cut the line and tied it off at a possible lead when he had actually just tied it off. In the process of checking some domes there was some stuff falling from the bubbles which reduced the vis a bit. I got back to the primary line and placed an arrow just to have one every so often. Mike had gone back to pick up the big reel, and I could no longer see his light.

After waiting for a minute without seeing anything I figured he had already headed out. I headed toward the entrance but after a short bit when I didn't catch up I decided to wait and sure enough he came along pretty quickly. I wasn't especially worried since we were only about 150' from the end of the line and actually had extra gas since we hadn't pushed the end.

[bletso]

We need a new purpose build cookie made. It needs to be Round like a non directional then on one side have a point to show direction but be distiguishable from a line arrow, Which should NEVER NEVER EVER point any way but out to the nearest exit, It should be White and about 3 inches around so you can write your inicials nice and big.
The only time you use it is to mark "This is Me, I found the line here and I am going this way." What do you think?

Curt

We do, it's called a clothspin. I was taught to install the clothspin on the side of the tie-in that you traveled.

Dale

[Cindy]

Thank you Dale! I still use them.

I had an old dive buddy who taught that you had to memorize tie off points of the line in a cave. He thought that in a silt out emergency that his students would be able to exit with more speed if they remembered the tie offs. Fortunatly this was a short lived idea as his students took Forever to get into a cave and if anything the exersize made them more insecure. I guided one at Alachua and he didn't make it to the end of the cavern before turning on thirds. We had good vis and he turned before reaching the 100 foot level. The diver had 100 dives but was in the process of taking an advanced Mix class from the instructor. No it was not a training dive. This was before the Mix class requirement and the diver was with me. He contacted me as most of the divers I take in there on this forum. Now I am not trying to pick on that diver as he eventually gave up on that himself and has since become a very good diver. It's just an example of how the learning process can occassionally go awry.

Sometime in our enthusiasm we want to "fix" things in cave diving. Most of the time they don't need fixed or they are already in the process of being fixed by people who are "experinced and in the know". I am a big supporter of finding out the lay of the land and talking to others on a problem before mouthing off. My worst tail burns were when I failed to do some research before trying to "fix" things.

Tomorrow I'll post another problem. You don't have to fix anything because of my posts, they are to help me think what could have been done differently and hopefully will make a few of you gain some insight into how to handle self rescue. If you guys want to give up on the arrow thing I have some work you can do.....I am off to work, Cindy

[skip]

It's not a matter of fixing things. It's a matter of whether or not this idea or object will improve things. Everything is dynamic and nothing is ever the best it could be.

personally i like the idea of a line arrow with a strobe and timer.... you find the line and now make it easier for your buddy to do the same, even in poor/no viz (although timer won't be seen).

the clothespin thing I've seen a bit of, seems a general purpose use more like a cookie, and if I should find one in no viz, I'd wonder if it was the one my buddy put on or I was now further along the line to where someone else had left one.

relax cindy. I don't think anyone plans to manufacture these strange ideas, or suddenly lots of confusing arrow-like things will show up in caves. But I promise if I ever leave some non-standard indicator on a line anywhere, it will have "Skip" written in bold letters.

What's the difference between me leaving a stroby cookie thing for my buddy or a clothespin? None, unless the stroby cookie thing mimics a line arrow and is pointed the wrong direction! But come on, anytime anyone puts a line arrow on a line it could be, by mistake, pointing the wrong way. Any line arrow at any time is only an indicator. not a promise.

learn to dive the cave, not the line.

(I know we all know this, but just thought I'd remind everyone.)

-skip

PS: Cindy, now look what your challenge question has created! Cookie Monsters!

[FW]

Don't bash my artwork Forrest, it was a quick conceptual drawing in Paint.

Sorry, I was referring to Tony's artwork, not yours

[FW]

learn to dive the cave, not the line.

That doesn't work in most caves on this planet. There are more dark water than clear water caves.

[skip]

true, but the dark water ones are the less traveled and in more need of additional assistance between buddy pairs...?

-skip