What's with those GUE divers wearing wrist compass'?

[TraceMalin]

Wow, usually people make sure to wright super positive reports about gue classes.
If I spend 4 days and a grand and instructor told me I failed because I did the skill correctly at the wrong depth, I'd be pissed. No wonder so many people don't pass if that's how the class is conducted.
If anything it was the instructors fault for not communicating clearly that the skill must performed at what depth.

I think things have relaxed a bit from what I experienced in the early days. It was almost like being hazed to join a frat. It made me a better instructor, but if I had been looking to just dive caves and trimix, it would have held me back. I dated an NSS-CDS instructor and she had to deprogram me. We were diving at Ginnie one evening and I accidentally knocked my grape Powerade off a picnic table with the cap off. Rich Courtney came bounding over saying, "Trace, just let the Kool-Aid spill out." Both my girlfriend Cristina and Rich had a good laugh about that. I wasn't even that cultic about the agency. They managed to assimilate Michael Menduno, and he coined the term. Bob Sherwood became one of my best friends, but I think I'm excommunicated from the organization and only marginally welcome in EE.

[bent]

I think things have relaxed a bit from what I experienced in the early days. It was almost like being hazed to join a frat. It made me a better instructor, ...

That's is exactly what my impression of gue has been and still is. It probably relaxed a bit as the bs you're describing is was cutting too much into earnings. The 25' vs 30' instructor basically scammed you and apparently wanted you to fail for some reason to begin with.
I don't know why say it made you a better instructor, it's highly unprofessional what you have experienced.
I've heard more stories like these over the years, but never online. I think the issue is that when you take a gue class and don't fawn over it, you'll get attacked.

... but I think I'm excommunicated from the organization and only marginally welcome in EE.

I guess that's a joke.

[rddvet]

That's is exactly what my impression of gue has been and still is. It probably relaxed a bit as the bs you're describing is was cutting too much into earnings. The 25' vs 30' instructor basically scammed you and apparently wanted you to fail for some reason to begin with.
I don't know why say it made you a better instructor, it's highly unprofessional what you have experienced.
I've heard more stories like these over the years, but never online. I think the issue is that when you take a gue class and don't fawn over it, you'll get attacked.


I guess that's a joke.

You cant pass judgment until you hear both sides of the story. To claim its highly unprofessional without knowing Bob?s side is dumb.


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[bent]

We failed because there was a 3-foot tech window. Bob had placed a double-ender at 25 feet on an upline unknown to us. We didn't hear him say to go up to 25 feet after doing skills at 30 feet... During our video eval Bob pointed out that we were indeed within a 3-foot window at 30 feet, but that was 5 feet more than 25, so we failed a tech pass.

If this was a cds instructor instead of a gue guy, you'd be all over this, Richard. People need to stop putting everything gue on a pedestal. It's just scuba diving... there is no special sauce or magic trim tricks.
What Trace writes is much more inline with my real-world experience than the 200 fundi class reports written by freshly backed super tec-divers.

[rddvet]

Nevermind. Theres no point in trying to explain my point further.

[Kelly Jessop]

We were diving at Ginnie one evening and I accidentally knocked my grape Powerade off a picnic table with the cap off. Rich Courtney came bounding over saying, "Trace, just let the Kool-Aid spill out." Both my girlfriend Cristina and Rich had a good laugh about that. I wasn't even that cultic about the agency. .

There is some interesting history. Cultish- perhaps elevated to that level by some of the more extreme zealots. I remember being called on a couple occasions to guide at a couple sites that were guide only. The person on the other end would ask was I a GUE/DIR diver. When the answer was no, I dove Hogarthian, the answer was not interested. This didn't offend me, it meant you lost the opportunity to see a great cave. I recall cave diving in the era where it was a gear configuration free for all, which meant butt mounting the primary or stuffing the long hose versus breathing off it, was acceptable. These were safe, and used on many occasions, but the label of stroke would be attached , which was a frequent comment on the Tech-diver list. Sometimes a candid picture would appear on Jeff's (last name forgotten site) of someone walking to the water with this configuration. I became a fan of the Hogarthian system which preached minimalism and streamlining , and DIR developed a little after that. The one thing I liked about Hogarthian versus DIR was that the system could be improved and innovation developed by anybody,but DIR change was limited to only a select very few. So how does this related to the compass. GUE divers have this as a required kit item, even thought they many never use it, Hogarthian would say if you don't need it, leave it behind. The question is having or not having a compass not safe, that can be only answered by the individual. made 1400 cave dives only using a compass for surveying,but then again I did get a called a stroke on a few occasions

[bent]

I became a fan of the Hogarthian system which preached minimalism and streamlining , and DIR developed a little after that. The one thing I liked about Hogarthian versus DIR was that the system could be improved and innovation developed by anybody,but DIR change was limited to only a select very few.

I agree with this. The Hogarthian approach is great and makes a lot of sense.
I even think the early DIR videos with George like the DIR 3 video were great and made a lot of sense. I watched the DIR 3 video again recently (it's still online: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD4K0SzZijI) and it's so much better than all the marketing horseshiet on youtube and facebook these days. It's like they were actually trying to explain their logic instead of sales people regurgitating stuff they've been told.

The issue is when a few people take a good idea or philosophy (not only in diving) and make a business/religion out of it who's real aim is to make as much money as possible from it.

[TraceMalin]

There is some interesting history. Cultish- perhaps elevated to that level by some of the more extreme zealots. I remember being called on a couple occasions to guide at a couple sites that were guide only. The person on the other end would ask was I a GUE/DIR diver. When the answer was no, I dove Hogarthian, the answer was not interested. This didn't offend me, it meant you lost the opportunity to see a great cave. I recall cave diving in the era where it was a gear configuration free for all, which meant butt mounting the primary or stuffing the long hose versus breathing off it, was acceptable. These were safe, and used on many occasions, but the label of stroke would be attached , which was a frequent comment on the Tech-diver list. Sometimes a candid picture would appear on Jeff's (last name forgotten site) of someone walking to the water with this configuration. I became a fan of the Hogarthian system which preached minimalism and streamlining , and DIR developed a little after that. The one thing I liked about Hogarthian versus DIR was that the system could be improved and innovation developed by anybody,but DIR change was limited to only a select very few. So how does this related to the compass. GUE divers have this as a required kit item, even thought they many never use it, Hogarthian would say if you don't need it, leave it behind. The question is having or not having a compass not safe, that can be only answered by the individual. made 1400 cave dives only using a compass for surveying,but then again I did get a called a stroke on a few occasions

I met Bill Main at Ginnie when he was testing a triangular wing. He told me about his time trials testing the design. It wasn't performing as one would expect, he said. He transitioned from the faults with the wing to what he discovered about the drag of a single hose in the breeze. Then he came over to the table where I had my gear and went over the finer points of DIR vs. his philosophy, the pros and cons, the compromises, and what he liked and didn't like about some of my stuff. Priceless.

[TraceMalin]

You cant pass judgment until you hear both sides of the story. To claim its highly unprofessional without knowing Bob?s side is dumb.


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He became one of my best friends. We did a TV pilot together. His side would be he never failed anyone, he just asked us if we thought we met GUE standards in a way that suggested our answer wasn't supposed to be yes. Also, he knew I could be even better than the standards and rode my arse until I was. It made me a better instructor. I became a tech and cave instructor because of the KSA's I developed after meeting the higher bar he set.

[bent]

Also, he knew I could be even better than the standards and rode my arse until I was. It made me a better instructor.

Sounds like he also knew he could get another 2 grand out of you guys for another fundi class.
, sorry, can't help it.