Want rapid accident analysis and want the IUCRR to determine a mechanism

[Bobby]

how do you stage in a cave? Off stages with 2/3rd remaining and clip off at that exact location? Or off at 2/3rd remaining and carry it further into the cave so the stage is assessable sooner? And If you carry further into the cave - then what determines the new drop location?

This is something we explain to anyone that is stage diving with us for the first time. When stage diving whether single, double, or multiple stages we do the same thing. We track the time to breath 1/3 of the stage down, lets call it 20 minutes. Then we get off the stage at that time and swim it another 20 minutes before we drop it. Do the same for all additional stages. This puts the stage as far into the system as possible while still having enough "theoretical" gas to get out. The extra drag of swimming the stage further in makes it safer as well. If there were an issue we would get on the stage, breath it until empty, then discard and go back to whatever back gas we have. As in all diving 1/3's is the minimum and we often reserve an extra 100-300 psi depending on the complexity of the dive.

[Diverlee]

I don?t stage dive often. I like Bobby?s post. Makes sense to me. People don?t die from to much gas.


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[Nitrogenius]

Is that an argument for having lines to an exit, even if it means making them visible in a cavern zone?

definately is for such caverns where it is very very unlikely that there will be swimmers, snorklers, non cave trained divers like it is the case in Ho-Tul and no name

it is also an "unecessarily" long gap..
if there was no gap or a shorter Gap also another fatality could potentially have been prevented there.. The one with the cave instructor and the student that died on the first dive after her certification on the Cuzan Nah loop

If one of the two cenotes there would have been lined as exit she would likely have seen/found that line. Hard to tell though, because she definately was lost.

brings us to the topic of length of jumps etc. The end of the line at Paso de Lagarto and Gran Cenote Main line are also very far apart.
If the main line would be visible from EOL of Paso de Lagarto then likely the other (old) Kalimba fatality could have been avoided..

So overall always a tricky situation and difficult to judge what is the "right" way to mark/line caves

[oceancurrent]

If one of the two cenotes there would have been lined as exit she would likely have seen/found that line.

That's exactly what I have been advocating in the aftermath of the accidents in that section. Any emergency exit should be clearly marked in no uncertain terms (perhaps with a line leading straight to it form the main line where a non-cavern-tour exit is involved). Crazy that people end up OOG fin strokes away from an exit apparently unaware of it. I don't buy the "permanent guidelines as far from entrances/exits as possible" philosophy as doing anything to prevent the foolhardy from killing themselves. If you are a Darwin award candidate venturing into caves without proper training+equipment, you would have laughed out a number of far more explicit and serious warnings than the lack of a line leading in. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot by irrationally clinging to an ancient mantra.

[JohnAd]

The end of the line at Paso de Lagarto and Gran Cenote Main line are also very far apart.
If the main line would be visible from EOL of Paso de Lagarto then likely the other (old) Kalimba fatality could have been avoided..

When a buddy and I dived that years ago, the shop where we rented our tanks described for me where to go to make the connection. When I got to the place to leave the main line, I did not see anything remotely like what I understood from his description. I ended up using about 135 feet of line to make what is probably a 75 foot connection, and the time it took greatly impacted our dive.

[bent]

Long jumps are not an issue as long as you do proper an convervative gas planing. You guys are not looking for the root cause. That's not how you do accident analysis. When a driver hits a tree next to the road while intoxicated and speeding, the solution/lesson is not to cut all down trees close to roadways (even though the tree killed the driver). The solution/lesson is: dont drink and drive and dont speed. You always need look for what started the series of events not what ended it. Making jumps shorter is a bandaid.

Oceancurrent, arent you a pilot? In plane accidents they also look for the root cause, dont they?

[JohnAd]

Long jumps are not an issue as long as you do proper an convervative gas planing. You guys are not looking for the root cause. That's not how you do accident analysis. When a driver hits a tree next to the road while intoxicated and speeding, the solution/lesson is not to cut all down trees close to roadways (even though the tree killed the driver). The solution/lesson is: dont drink and drive and dont speed. You always need look for what started the series of events not what ended it. Making jumps shorter is a bandaid.

Oceancurrent, arent you a pilot? In plane accidents they also look for the root cause, dont they?

I see. So in the case of the student whose instructor separated from her and pulled all the jumps so that she could not find her way out, her poor planning started with...well, what exactly?

As for the two Germans, we don't know what went wrong in their dive, leading them to change their plan and seek an exit that had a big gap in the exit line.

All we know is that in both cases, dives did not go according to plan and divers died in an unmarked area frustratingly close to an exit.

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

I like it.
For your example the first 20 minutes - do you take into consideration the average depth - and monitor it for the second 20 minutes?

[bent]

As I said, imho, you're looking at it from the wrong side. Why would they have changed their plans if not for gas issues?
In the other case the missing jump was end of a bunch of issues.
I just think the focus when looking at incidents should be on what kicked thinks off and how that can be a lesson for future training. Such as taking video and pictures should be considered an advanced activity and requires experience and extra planing. Hoping that another exit has a closer jump is really helping you... There might not be any line to begin with.

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

Here is a useful link for Mexico cave maps...
http://www.mexicancaves.org/index.html
Look on the first page for a link "Cave Maps"
Then pick "Quintana Roo"
Good example is the 1st and third "Mayan Blue" maps
First one is full detail
Second is much less detail but lines are there.
Look at tunnel "A" and a short distance in is a small cenote "Sunhole cenote entrance" to the left (east) cant see it inside but super good to know about if your exiting A tunnel and your short on gas.