Want rapid accident analysis and want the IUCRR to determine a mechanism

[Kelly Jessop]

I am reading on many social media sites a general level of discontent because there isn't real accident narrative that occurs rapidly for others to learn from, which is the basis of our sport. There is a need for information disseminated quickly,but not interfering with law enforcement investigation. There are stories of recovery divers asking on site law enforcement about reporting a short narrative, and they were okay with it,but they were prevented from doing it. From looking at all the social media posts everyone is afraid of going on record to say they want change, so I started an anonymous poll.

[tbone1004]

I don't know that I would say any of us are afraid of going on record for wanting change, but we have no voice to change. Emails sent directly to the IUCRR go unanswered, the director comes on this forum and directly says he doesn't care and won't change, there is NO ability to overthrow him as director, it is not a "membership" organization that anyone can join, and IUCRR divers that have actively spoken out against the policies have been kicked out of the organization. You are the one saying that the forums don't matter, but until Ken resigns, this isn't going to change. He made that abundantly clear last year so what is the point of this other than garnering what is likely a unanimous vote that it needs to change without a single shred of evidence that there is the ability to change?

[MORGAN]

Having spent my adult life in the emergency services and health care, and with a father and a wife who both had long careers in law enforcement, I appreciate the need for confidentiality and the risk of litigation. I'm also aware that the IUCRR exists to assist law enforcement with body recoveries and evidence collection and has no obligation to disseminate information further.

However, there's definitely an unmet need for accurate information and analysis of cave diving accidents. The aviation community has shown how useful this can be in improving safety. The publication "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" and the NSS's periodic publication of caving accidents get valuable information out into the climbing and caving communities.

It seems to me that it would be reasonable for some agency; the IUCRR, NSS-CDS, or whoever, to publish a report and analysis of each cave diving fatality once the law enforcement investigation is closed. I'm sure that there are some people who want all the information as soon as possible, but I think that most of us would be satisfied with knowing that a report would reliably be published once the case is closed. The alternative is what we have at present: an information vacuum which invites speculation, gossip, and rumor. Humans being what they are, a certain amount of this is unavoidable, but maybe knowing that the full story will come out after the case is closed would tamp it down to some degree.

Mike

[Kelly Jessop]

Having spent my adult life in the emergency services and health care, and with a father and a wife who both had long careers in law enforcement, I appreciate the need for confidentiality and the risk of litigation. I'm also aware that the IUCRR exists to assist law enforcement with body recoveries and evidence collection and has no obligation to disseminate information further.

However, there's definitely an unmet need for accurate information and analysis of cave diving accidents. The aviation community has shown how useful this can be in improving safety. The publication "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" and the NSS's periodic publication of caving accidents get valuable information out into the climbing and caving communities.

It seems to me that it would be reasonable for some agency; the IUCRR, NSS-CDS, or whoever, to publish a report and analysis of each cave diving fatality once the law enforcement investigation is closed. I'm sure that there are some people who want all the information as soon as possible, but I think that most of us would be satisfied with knowing that a report would reliably be published once the case is closed. The alternative is what we have at present: an information vacuum which invites speculation, gossip, and rumor. Humans being what they are, a certain amount of this is unavoidable, but maybe knowing that the full story will come out after the case is closed would tamp it down to some degree.

Mike

My thoughts go to an accident in Mexico. Two cave divers died on the same day,and quick thinking and reporting saved lives, because it was found to be bad air in rental tanks. They recovered the other rental tanks before more injury could occur. Under our present paradigm this could never have happened. I respect that the system in place has purpose,but with accident analysis being an integral part of the safety of all cave divers, rapid reporting becomes important.

[rddvet]

I dont want fast information. I would just like the recovery team to give a report once theyve concluded their investigation and the police ok it. Even if thats months later. The guys in mexico took over a year i believe to post their report. Which is fine because they did a great job writing it out. As a whole I think the cave divers in mx are doing it better than us. None of them have this ridiculous fear of releasing info. And at least from the outside looking in, they appear to come together as a community better.
I think what any of us want is transparency from the iucrr rather than them hiding the facts or only telling their buddies.


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[rddvet]

I don't know that I would say any of us are afraid of going on record for wanting change, but we have no voice to change. Emails sent directly to the IUCRR go unanswered, the director comes on this forum and directly says he doesn't care and won't change, there is NO ability to overthrow him as director, it is not a "membership" organization that anyone can join, and IUCRR divers that have actively spoken out against the policies have been kicked out of the organization. You are the one saying that the forums don't matter, but until Ken resigns, this isn't going to change. He made that abundantly clear last year so what is the point of this other than garnering what is likely a unanimous vote that it needs to change without a single shred of evidence that there is the ability to change?

When I posted the info from the recovery before this one at ginnie I received a rude email from Beth of ginnie and iucrr fame threatening legal action if I didnt stop posting and didnt take it down. I ignored it because there is nothing illegal about my posts. It was grandstanding to try and scare me. Very pathetic.


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[cerich]

When I posted the info from the recovery before this one at ginnie I received a rude email from Beth of ginnie and iucrr fame threatening legal action if I didnt stop posting and didnt take it down. I ignored it because there is nothing illegal about my posts. It was grandstanding to try and scare me. Very pathetic.


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so the folks that have taken a position on releasing accident investigations or reports would be a bad thing because somebody may sue, in fact think that threatening lawsuits themselves is perfectly legit eh?

What should and does that tell the community.

Look, it's unlikely there will be a change there, but the oft used response in the dive agency world when enough folks say "enough", is just compete.

Who wants to be on the board of the Underwater Cave a Rescue and Recovery Network (UCRRN) for which said article of incorporation and bylaws require reports. We can work with the training agencies for the specialty and let it be delivered thru instructors approved by UCRRN.

[jcr]

The current system is broken and I believe the IUCRR as an organization has outlived its usefulness. IUCRR or not, cave divers will continue to perform body recoveries.

I propose that the NSS-CDS takes up the mantle and creates a call-up list of qualified recovery divers. The recovery teams should issue a statement of facts as soon as practical (like the double fatality at Eagles Nest) to be followed by more detailed accident analysis, which should be released in writing and presented at the annual conference. In addition, a database should be created to track fatalities and analyze trends over time.

Recovery divers do not work for law enforcement. They are volunteers that are willing do a difficult job for the cave diving community. Their loyalty is to the deceased and the deceased's family as well as the cave diving community.

[TraceMalin]

I'm a volunteer RRSOM/Diver with IUCRR. According to the Current RRSOM Manual:

Security of the Complete IUCRR Incident Report

The COMPLETE IUCRR INCIDENT REPORT with names opinions and comments are confidential and the property of the IUCRR. They are not to be discussed or distributed because of possible future legal liability. The IUCRR REVISED REPORT, with the removal of the names and opinions and comments not based on fact, may be discussed and distributed by members, and will be posted to the IUCRR Web site.

The IUCRR exists to assist law enforcement. If the official position of the organization has changed regarding "and will be posted to the IUCRR Web site" I think that is something that needs to be addressed either by adhering to that policy or changing the standards to reflect that information will only be shared with law enforcement.

[Kelly Jessop]

In addition, a database should be created to track fatalities and analyze trends over time.

.

The CDS does have that mechanism installed in the bylaws in their standing committees under accident investigation committee. Not sure of the active status of this committee because I hadn't heard of any reporting. Jeff Bozanic was in possession of a database, and recall a presentation he did 10+ years ago at a workshop which showed statistical data related to these accident files.