Want rapid accident analysis and want the IUCRR to determine a mechanism

[Garth]

They posted it within 48 hours of the fatality. Sure there is some info missing/unknown but that's better then conjecture/guessing.

I read the report from Mexico. I reflected on my own practice despite it being a solo dive with no witnesses it still provided quite a bit of valuable information and here is why i think so:

Not every review of an event creates a rule. And that's okay.

Sometimes the review of an event can be as simple as reviewing the details and what led up to the tragedy. That alone can cause people pause, reflection and time to think. We may not learn some earth shattering clue that leads us to believe we need to change practice. I still don't dive with a HUD despite some who believe they are crucial to prevent accident and I think it was discussed a bit in one of the reviews. If there was a vibrating HUD on the market outside of the DIVA for the hammerhead that I could put on my sidewinder i would do it. Flashing lights, no matter how bright aren't quite like vibration to get your attention but that's beside the point I'm trying to make.

The point I'm trying to make is that I gain valuable information from review such as the one done within 48hrs of the event in Mexico. I also like to read them so I can think about the divers who recovered the body. I'm not going to say its prayer when it isn't exactly but I do think about them and thank them for the service they provide, even if its in my head. I care about their lives and how it affected them. I would say it out loud but most people around me (loved ones) don't want to hear about cave accidents so i keep my thoughts to myself. I respect the recovery divers so much and I often don't get a chance to say that. I also don't know how to say it other than the way I'm rambling now. I mean I'm basically a tourist cave diver so I doubt it comes with any level of clout anyway.

Anyhoots, if there is a way to replicate what they did in the review of Mexico to accidents here in the USA I think there are definitely people who would find value in it. I would for sure. I would think about the recovery team, the family of the diver, the diver and the friends who knew him/her. If there isn't a way forward to that degree of review I get it. We should try.

[MinimalMayhem]

I read the report from Mexico. I reflected on my own practice despite it being a solo dive with no witnesses it still provided quite a bit of valuable information and here is why i think so:

Not every review of an event creates a rule. And that's okay.

Sometimes the review of an event can be as simple as reviewing the details and what led up to the tragedy. That alone can cause people pause, reflection and time to think. We may not learn some earth shattering clue that leads us to believe we need to change practice. I still don't dive with a HUD despite some who believe they are crucial to prevent accident and I think it was discussed a bit in one of the reviews. If there was a vibrating HUD on the market outside of the DIVA for the hammerhead that I could put on my sidewinder i would do it. Flashing lights, no matter how bright aren't quite like vibration to get your attention but that's beside the point I'm trying to make.

The point I'm trying to make is that I gain valuable information from review such as the one done within 48hrs of the event in Mexico. I also like to read them so I can think about the divers who recovered the body. I'm not going to say its prayer when it isn't exactly but I do think about them and thank them for the service they provide, even if its in my head. I care about their lives and how it affected them. I would say it out loud but most people around me (loved ones) don't want to hear about cave accidents so i keep my thoughts to myself. I respect the recovery divers so much and I often don't get a chance to say that. I also don't know how to say it other than the way I'm rambling now. I mean I'm basically a tourist cave diver so I doubt it comes with any level of clout anyway.

Anyhoots, if there is a way to replicate what they did in the review of Mexico to accidents here in the USA I think there are definitely people who would find value in it. I would for sure. I would think about the recovery team, the family of the diver, the diver and the friends who knew him/her. If there isn't a way forward to that degree of review I get it. We should try.

Well said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bent]

... ... Flashing lights, no matter how bright aren't quite like vibration to get your attention but that's beside the point I'm trying to make.

If you could test that somehow, I would bet a box of beer it's the other way around. Flashing red light right in front of your eye must be pretty hard to miss, especially in a cave vs in bright sunlight.

I still don't dive with a HUD despite some who believe they are crucial to prevent accident and I think it was discussed a bit in one of the reviews.

Would you take the HUD off if it came stock on the unit or do you just dont want to buy one?

[oceancurrent]

The Cenote Odyssey report is quite a surprise. While we've gotten used to getting excellent reports from Mexico, I've never seen a preliminary report be published so quickly and with so much detail. In fact, there is far more information than expected in a preliminary report - background on diver, names of recovery divers, search procedures, etc. Still, better more information than needed than less as long as it is all done respectfully towards the deceased. Respect for the recovery team!

Isn't it ironic - Mexico pushing the boundaries of accident analysis, USA leading the way in suffocating it? Amazing how effective a good report can be in diffusing all speculation before it even has a chance to flame up. Something for the Florida dictators with choke hold on the information flow to think about next time they complain about people speculating and them being misunderstood dogooders.

For the record: If I ever die in a diving accident, I would like all basic facts relevant to establishing cause of the accident be released to the community as soon as available followed by a final report within a year's time. I wave HIPAA rights etc. I also wave all claims towards anyone involved in the recovery, the land owner, my instructors, the organization that certified me.

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

I like the Mexico reporting of accidents involving cave divers. Reporting issued within a few days or sooner. Facts and no name, and no suggestions on how it happened. Notice that the subsequent postings are mostly RIP and kind words. Unlike a report of a death(s) with no information. Then you get so much speculation, scuba divers asking questions that are not cave divers, cave divers getting angry with each other. Posting gets off topic. Comparing the most recent death with another death that is most likely completely different all because there isn't basic info. I remember reading the posting of the 2 german divers that passed away at Kalimba near Tulum. Great initial report. All cave divers could scrutinize the report and learn from it, all without names of the divers involved. Give us the basics - all facts - no names, so we can understand and learn. Please.

[sskasser]

For the record: If I ever die in a diving accident, I would like all basic facts relevant to establishing cause of the accident be released to the community as soon as available followed by a final report within a year's time. I wave HIPAA rights etc. I also wave all claims towards anyone involved in the recovery, the land owner, my instructors, the organization that certified me.

Agreed, and I strongly recommend you do this in a way that is associated with your real human self (either in a legal document or add your IRL name to the above post).

My family knows and I realize this is not acceptable in lieu of a more formal document, but I'll put it here since your wording is easy to klep:

For the use of any of y'all who might get stuck dragging my old dead ass out of a cave: If I ever die in a diving accident, I would like all basic facts relevant to establishing cause of the accident be released to the community as soon as available followed by a final report within a year's time. I waive any rights to privacy and any claims towards anyone involved in the recovery, the land owner, my instructors, the organization that certified me. Refer to the release of details in the thread "Tulum accident, a solo russian diver" by Aktun on 4/25/2022 for the type of immediate reporting I'd prefer. -Shirley Kasser Creech

Be safe in there, I love most of y'all!

[sskasser]

And for f*'s sake, if my family hasn't been notified, don't post that cryptic "Oh we lost one. I'm sorry. RIP my friend. No, I can't tell y'all who yet. Check on those you care about" bullshit. I CANNOT tell you how awful that is. EVERY time that happens, I go through a time of worrying about every single person I care about in this community who I haven't heard from lately. It's needlessly cruel. If the name hasn't been released, and you're not trying to solicit specific information that will help with recovery or stop further injury (like suspected bad gas), please wait to post until you can include the name. I can't think of a single good reason to cause people needless worry about far-flung friends by doing that.

[JohnAd]

I remember reading the posting of the 2 german divers that passed away at Kalimba near Tulum. Great initial report. All cave divers could scrutinize the report and learn from it,

While there was an initial report, their final report took a year, and during that year they puzzled over the known details and then released an outstanding final report. That report, though, is tantalizingly incomplete, because they simply could not make sense out of it all. There is still room for speculation in that report (and in many other cases where there is no clear cut explanation for what happened). There is also room for speculation that could potentially impact standard cave procedures, if people have the chance to discuss them. If people don't have the chance to discuss them, nothing positive can be gained.

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

JohnAd - I agree with everything you're saying. The Kalimba incident... What can we learn from the report... Both divers were sidemount with single stages. Divers while on their stages were both using their cameras to shoot pictures/video. Clipped off stages at 2/3rd remaining but not as far into the cave as would normally expected. Did a number of jumps while continuing to use cameras. Some question in the report if they got lost for a portion of the dive. They began exiting back towards their stages and at some point know their stages are ahead of them - decide to exit in the opposite direction and try to make to a different exit. Wow. Yes they were swimming into flow when the made the decision to exit in the opposite direction. The report also suggests - based on how far they exited in the opposite direction - that they would have had sufficient gas remaining to make it to their stages. Again wow. What can a diver learn from all of that - Only 1 diver can be using a camera - other diver must be in charge of navigation - when you reach 2/3rd gas remaining on your stage - should I clip it off exactly there or carry it a few minutes further into the cave so I can have access to that gas sooner? - Do I have an accurate - drawn to scale map - in my wetnotes? So that I understand where the exits REALLY are. It would be a terrifying moment to be headed back to your stage then then decide to turn and go the opposite way. Problems... Two divers both using cameras at the same time and not doing what is most important - paying attention to navigation and gas remaining. We could add a new posting on - how do you stage in a cave? Off stages with 2/3rd remaining and clip off at that exact location? Or off at 2/3rd remaining and carry it further into the cave so the stage is assessable sooner? And If you carry further into the cave - then what determines the new drop location?

My point to all of this... Dive reports make a difference. I personally don't need names - Just facts. Doesn't mean I don't care about who has lost their life because I certainly do. Sometimes the mistakes made are obvious and sometimes they need thinking and reflecting and sometimes they need wisdom from other peoples postings.

[JohnAd]

Here is another potential discussion topic based on that incident. In framing the topic, I want to springboard from the actual incident to a hypothetical that is barely different.

The two divers tried to make it out Gran Cenote, but did not make it. They both died within the same minute according to their computers, but one of them was well ahead of the other. Both dying in the same minute suggests they shared air. They died in the space where there is no guideline because the cave uses the common protocol of not having guidelines in a cavern zone, and there is a rarely (if ever) used cenote entrance there. You have to be looking for it to see it. There is some speculation that the one who was ahead of the other might have been able to make it to that cenote, but he was not heading in that direction and likely did not know it was there.

Hypothetical: Change the situation only slightly and give the two divers more gas than they had. They are trying to reach an exit in time, but they come to a big gap in the line because of the protocol of not having cave lines in sight in a cavern zone. They don't know where to go and fail to find the exit in time because they do not have a direct line to an exit. Is that an argument for having lines to an exit, even if it means making them visible in a cavern zone?