Want rapid accident analysis and want the IUCRR to determine a mechanism

[rddvet]

I've got quite a bit of experience working in the scientific diving world. While the AAUS manual includes technical and scientific diving, there are not a lot of programs that allow cave or technical diving at their institution specifically because of perceived risks and liability concerns.

Yep. Exactly ny point.


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[oceancurrent]

the lack of cooperation from the IUCRR has made it difficult

So, here... IUCRR once again impeding accident analysis!

In the aviation community, it is widely recognized that accident analysis is instrumental to safety improvement and accident rates reduction. Evidence recoveries and accident investigations are handled by the NTSB, a specialized government organization with the mission to "investigate accidents and events to determine their probable cause, examine safety issues, and develop recommendations to prevent similar accidents and events in the future.". Factual reports are published timely with great detail. In general aviation (that most closely resembles recreational cave diving), most accidents do not involve crimes and thus law enforcement's role in the NTSB investigations is limited. So why is it any different in the cave diving community and why would anyone believe that recovery and investigation efforts are a law enforcement business foremost (limited in scope to establishing presence/absence of crime which in this case is most likely absent anyways) and not a safety improvement concern?

[bent]

It's not like anything in that report will be a surprise to anyone. Analyse your gas, mark the tank and verify what you're switching to.
Operating an airplane ist much more complex than diving.

Btw: Thanks to Charlie, Jon and the others who donate their time to do this.

[oceancurrent]

This sport is only as safe as divers are risk conscious, aware, and constantly looking for ways to improve. It's not healthy to ever think you've learned it all, are as knowledgeable, safe, and skilled diver as you could be.

It's not like anything in that report will be a surprise to anyone.

We will see!

Analyse your gas, mark the tank and verify what you're switching to.

So, gas switching is all too simple, Andrew was a fool, we are so much smarter, there is nothing for us to learn here?

Operating an airplane ist much more complex than diving.

You seriously underestimate the complexity of cave diving. Take it from somebody who is familiar with both disciplines.

[bent]

So, gas switching is all too simple, Andrew was a fool, we are so much smarter, there is nothing for us to learn here?.

Yes, it is simple, and so is analyzing your gas.
I never called anyone a fool or even implied as much. But the truth is that we see the SAME stuff over and over and over again. Just shortly before or after that accident someone else switched to a hot mix in France at 180' and died. Recently two people in Roaring river have knowingly or used or switched to the wrong gas and one died one got lucky. People deliberately ignore safety standards, happens all the time and it's fine until it isn't... beating around the bush and acting as is there is oh so much to learn from every accident is silly.

It's not healthy to ever think you've learned it all, are as knowledgeable, safe, and skilled diver as you could be.

In contrast to you, I'm actually reading all reports that come out to look for new stuff.
You just complained in the other thread that no reports are being published even though a bunch of reports were published. Read them and please tell me what new things you have learned.

[Kelly Jessop]

Yes, it is simple, and so is analyzing your gas.
I never called anyone a fool or even implied as much. But the truth is that we see the SAME stuff over and over and over again. Just shortly before or after that accident someone else switched to a hot mix in France at 180' and died. Recently two people in Roaring river have knowingly or used or switched to the wrong gas and one died one got lucky. People deliberately ignore safety standards, happens all the time and it's fine until it isn't... beating around the bush and acting as is there is oh so much to learn from every accident is silly.


In contrast to you, I'm actually reading all reports that come out to look for new stuff.
You just complained in the other thread that no reports are being published even though a bunch of reports were published. Read them and please tell me what new things you have learned.

You are right a majority of the time there is nothing new to learn, and there has only been once in 20 years when disseminating information quickly was important because of bad air,but I respect the desire to know. A psychologist/cavediver I know with a Phd made this comment to me about people wanting know about accident analysis quickly. His comment was knowing the specifics and causes to an accident was a psychological defense mechanism so that individuals can validate performing the activity by saying, "I would never do that", hence I am safe. I am paraphrasing his comments,but made for an interesting point.

[kensuf]

Speaking as a person that took a decade off from cave diving myself, I think one of the lessons that a person could learn from the 2022 fatality is the concept of recency and skill degradation. A person may have had all of the training and experience in the world, but if they took a break, they probably have had some skill erosion and should work slowly back up to those bigger dives rather than just jumping into the deep end of the pool.

[bent]

A psychologist/cavediver I know with a Phd made this comment to me about people wanting know about accident analysis quickly. His comment was knowing the specifics and causes to an accident was a psychological defense mechanism so that individuals can validate performing the activity by saying, "I would never do that", hence I am safe. I am paraphrasing his comments,but made for an interesting point.

I believe that, because that's what I'm thinking when I read reports too.
Although, I do dive solo even though some reports say solo was a factor... that part I usually don't agree with.

The solo part I think it's debatable. The not using a HUD, no BOV or neckless, not analyzing, using a shut-off, using 3rds with stages and dropping early is pretty clear cut IMHO. I wonder how many people have actually ever changed their config or process after reading a report. Would be worth a poll.

[Kelly Jessop]

Speaking as a person that took a decade off from cave diving myself, I think one of the lessons that a person could learn from the 2022 fatality is the concept of recency and skill degradation. A person may have had all of the training and experience in the world, but if they took a break, they probably have had some skill erosion and should work slowly back up to those bigger dives rather than just jumping into the deep end of the pool.

Very valid point. We have experienced this scenario with multiple accidents from the guys from Wisconsin who had an accident at Madison, and the couple accidents we had workshop weekend. The couple time a year cave diver seems to be more susceptible.

[oceancurrent]

In contrast to you, I'm actually reading all reports that come out to look for new stuff.
You just complained in the other thread that no reports are being published even though a bunch of reports were published.

Oh, you can bet your hat that I read all the reports - it is my job to be as informed as I can! You are brash to make such claims!

I pointed out that the report about Andrew is missing. That's all! As you know, I wrote a commentary on the Cow report as soon as it was released. Definitely have not complained that no reports have been published!

You won't be the first cave diver to believe that you know it all, have nothing to learn, and won't make a mistake somebody else made. I little bit of humility won't hurt you, you know!