Any news from Ginnie today?

[rddvet]

I think you and Tom, Richard and some others are spinning this. Who says the details are gone for good? None does. You guys don't know that.
Put yourself in position of the recovery divers. You basically just got out of the water after you had to get a body (likely of someone you knew) out of the cave. Now, you haven't even dried off and already you are being bugged by a pack of vultures that DEMAND details NOW. So they can talk about it on the internet. Really? If I was a one of the recovery divers, I'd be livid. For crying out loud, if there is no information in 3 month you guys can ##### and moan all you want and you would at least have somewhat of a point.
What do you guys need to info for NOW and why can't you wait another 2 weeks?
For instance, in the EN accident with the two JJ diver and the tow germans in Mx, there was lots of info released. Just not the day after.

If anyone wants to talk accident analysis, you can open up a thread about CCR HUDs or whatever and talk about what could have happened in a situation like that.

I apparently missed this post, but saw your others. You can go back and look, I have never once said I think info needs to come out in a specific time frame or even soon. I don't really care because I get every little bitty detail sent to me without asking. I have no dog in the fight as to when the info should come out. I do have issue with the fact that details never seem to become public knowledge for people to learn from at some point, and there really isn't any accident analysis. The main issue I have is the recovery divers can't seem to get things straight within themselves. Every single incident someone runs their mouth(almost always the same couple of people) and their buddies know the details. But when one of the recovery divers feels it should be public, those same people who constantly blab the details suddenly have an issue with it. And they veil it under concern for the family. If that was true then they should be caring enough not to blab to their buddies to begin with. There's alot of talking out of both sides of their mouths. This isn't meant to be derogatory to all of the recovery divers. They garner my respect. This is specifically about the few who can't keep quiet to their friends, but don't want anybody else to know. I don't mean this as a slight to you but I have no other way to say it. You don't live in cave country and are far from local, so it's hard to understand unless your around it.

[bent]

I'll say it a little differently. For the past 7 years that I've been in cave country I have found out every gritty detail of every major incident in less than 24 hours. The reason I find out that info is that there's always somebody that tells that info to their "friends". But they don't realize their friends can't keep it quiet and it spreads like wildfire and text chains start along with lots of speculation. In every single case I have direct knowledge of who the people that blabbed the initial facts first are. I can tell you that the people who vocally and semi-rudely tried to bend my arm to take this post down because of "concern over the family and friends" are the exact same people I know for a fact run their mouths to their "inner circle." Don't mistake that I'm saying these are recovery divers discussing it with other recovery divers. I am saying these are recovery divers/support team members who as soon as they have access to their phones fill their friends in with all the gory details. Not to move accident analysis forward, but because they want their buddies to know. People may not like to hear it, but its cold hard fact. If you're not privy to these conversations and details you may not understand it. I never go searching for details, but they always seem to fall into my lap. The ole boys club mentality is still alive and well. If you're in the inner circle you get the deets.
So my issue is why are the people who run their mouth to their friends suddenly upset that I posted the details I was asked to post? What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander in their eyes I guess.
I

Yes, people gossip. I think farmerted(?) said that what was said about the monitor was not correct, which leads me to believe that your source might not have the full picture. I think farmerted also said that he will report what he knows if there is no report released after police closes the chase. That sound good to me and it think it's reasonable.

Eitherway, I don't think it's too much to ask to let it rest for a couple of weeks. I mean, if you wanna complain about the same stuff in 6 week, I'm with you. But not now.

@UCFKnightDiver, you guys act like the details were gone for good. That part is spin. You can't possibly know that.

[farmerted]

I was one of the people who asked that the thread be closed. I did not send any nasty messages or anything. To me there was a good reason for it. The deceased spouse is also a cave diver. They were not in town. This person had also not been told much at the time. Why I do not know. Is it too much to ask to wait a few days or a week? Part of the process of doing recoveries is to gather forensic data. This information is then used to discover what happened. When the extraction has been completed the recovery divers are asked not to share the details outside of the team until the investigation has been finished. This stems from the law enforcement side I would guess. I?m not saying I agree with any of this, but that is what was asked of me. Now we have one of the team ask someone to post the facts so they remain anonymous. The reason is to get the details out to save lives. The anonymity is so that the team member does not want to get kicked off the team? Really? Personally I don?t care if I ever do another recovery. They should have just posted it directly. For what it?s worth, I don?t know who it was and don?t care.
So now I am a good ole boy and am hiding behind the cloak of protecting the family because I?m hoarding the information in secrecy. Thanks. What a conspiracy this is. I don?t agree with anyone withholding information about these instances. In my post I did say that if nothing was put out in a timely manner that I would post what I know and I will. All I asked for was that the thread be taken down as then was not the time. It could have waited a few days. An accident report is not needed to talk about hypoxia and huds and such. Just start a thread about it.
Last Friday. I got to go in a cave for 5 hours. During that dive, I had to work hard. While you try your best not to, you will see their face. That face was someone I knew and liked. He was a friend. I did this for the sake of his family so they could have closure. I don?t want to talk about it for a little bit. Someone else does? Fine. Don?t hide behind anonymity. I merely asked for the thread to be closed as it was too soon. Cant things wait a few days? In this day and age, we have become accustomed to instant gratification. I believe this has led to a decline in self control. There is much we can learn from this incident. Waiting a short period changes nothing. Please have some respect.
Ted McCoy
386-292-9936

[UCFKnightDiver]

@UCFKnightDiver, you guys act like the details were gone for good. That part is spin. You can't possibly know that.

I think you're putting words in my mouth. My issue is with the pervasive and in my mind detrimental mindset of withholding information about these incidents and silencing others that speak out in general that is common amongst the cave diving community and is evidenced by many past examples some of which have been provided. You also didn't answer my questions. If the information that has been shared thus far is not appropriate now, then when is it appropriate? Why is that information more appropriate in a few weeks?

[rddvet]

I was one of the people who asked that the thread be closed. I did not send any nasty messages or anything. To me there was a good reason for it. The deceased spouse is also a cave diver. They were not in town. This person had also not been told much at the time. Why I do not know. Is it too much to ask to wait a few days or a week? Part of the process of doing recoveries is to gather forensic data. This information is then used to discover what happened. When the extraction has been completed the recovery divers are asked not to share the details outside of the team until the investigation has been finished. This stems from the law enforcement side I would guess. I?m not saying I agree with any of this, but that is what was asked of me. Now we have one of the team ask someone to post the facts so they remain anonymous. The reason is to get the details out to save lives. The anonymity is so that the team member does not want to get kicked off the team? Really? Personally I don?t care if I ever do another recovery. They should have just posted it directly. For what it?s worth, I don?t know who it was and don?t care.
So now I am a good ole boy and am hiding behind the cloak of protecting the family because I?m hoarding the information in secrecy. Thanks. What a conspiracy this is. I don?t agree with anyone withholding information about these instances. In my post I did say that if nothing was put out in a timely manner that I would post what I know and I will. All I asked for was that the thread be taken down as then was not the time. It could have waited a few days. An accident report is not needed to talk about hypoxia and huds and such. Just start a thread about it.
Last Friday. I got to go in a cave for 5 hours. During that dive, I had to work hard. While you try your best not to, you will see their face. That face was someone I knew and liked. He was a friend. I did this for the sake of his family so they could have closure. I don?t want to talk about it for a little bit. Someone else does? Fine. Don?t hide behind anonymity. I merely asked for the thread to be closed as it was too soon. Cant things wait a few days? In this day and age, we have become accustomed to instant gratification. I believe this has led to a decline in self control. There is much we can learn from this incident. Waiting a short period changes nothing. Please have some respect.
Ted McCoy
386-292-9936

Ted, my comments were in no way directed to you or meant as a dig at you or any of the other recovery divers who are professional and act like adults. My comments were about a specific few who love to be the ones that spread the gossip, but when this thread was posted suddenly are high and mighty about all of it and then send me nasty messages. You were not one of those people and most of the recovery divers aren't. It's a very specific few and I'm pretty sure that any of you guys in the industry or on the team already know about it. I hear your comment about self control, but I firmly believe the intent of this thread was to try and quell the hysteria that occurs because everyone nowadays lacks the self control to wait. I agree waiting 1 or 5 days isn't a big deal in my eyes, but it seems anytime there's a delay in information the rampant speculation and tons of misinformation goes wild. I think this tragedy has actually had less of that and I think it's directly related to giving people information to calm them down.

[bent]

Why is that information more appropriate in a few weeks?

Well, if you don't know why even after reading Teds post, I don't think I can explain it to you.

[cavewoman]

I was one of the people who asked that the thread be closed. I did not send any nasty messages or anything. To me there was a good reason for it. The deceased spouse is also a cave diver. They were not in town. This person had also not been told much at the time. Why I do not know. Is it too much to ask to wait a few days or a week? Part of the process of doing recoveries is to gather forensic data. This information is then used to discover what happened. When the extraction has been completed the recovery divers are asked not to share the details outside of the team until the investigation has been finished. This stems from the law enforcement side I would guess. I?m not saying I agree with any of this, but that is what was asked of me. Now we have one of the team ask someone to post the facts so they remain anonymous. The reason is to get the details out to save lives. The anonymity is so that the team member does not want to get kicked off the team? Really? Personally I don?t care if I ever do another recovery. They should have just posted it directly. For what it?s worth, I don?t know who it was and don?t care.
So now I am a good ole boy and am hiding behind the cloak of protecting the family because I?m hoarding the information in secrecy. Thanks. What a conspiracy this is. I don?t agree with anyone withholding information about these instances. In my post I did say that if nothing was put out in a timely manner that I would post what I know and I will. All I asked for was that the thread be taken down as then was not the time. It could have waited a few days. An accident report is not needed to talk about hypoxia and huds and such. Just start a thread about it.
Last Friday. I got to go in a cave for 5 hours. During that dive, I had to work hard. While you try your best not to, you will see their face. That face was someone I knew and liked. He was a friend. I did this for the sake of his family so they could have closure. I don?t want to talk about it for a little bit. Someone else does? Fine. Don?t hide behind anonymity. I merely asked for the thread to be closed as it was too soon. Cant things wait a few days? In this day and age, we have become accustomed to instant gratification. I believe this has led to a decline in self control. There is much we can learn from this incident. Waiting a short period changes nothing. Please have some respect.
Ted McCoy
386-292-9936

Well stated Ted. Also, consider this: none of the recovery divers are asking for payment for these tasks, they do this as a service to the community. It's an absolute #### job, this one in particular. Especially if you know the victim. Yes, the recovery divers talk to people close to them, they likely can't afford to talk to a therapist about the aftermath of the experience, so that's the next best to unpack all the mental/emotional toll. The Eagles Nest incident had a very thorough report after some time had passed. I think the public can wait for some details. Though I was not one of the recovery divers, I knew the victim in this case and his lovely wife, I personally have had a rough few days with this.

[farmerted]

When a recovery takes place, there are many people involved. In this case there were over a dozen. Each person has a role. When they are done paperwork is filled out. It is the job of the surface manager to put all the small stories together and create a timeline and then hand that over to law enforcement. In this case( and most others), the surface manager was on site for multiple days till late at night. That?s a lot of time. Now they still have the job to compile all this info all the while being asked by law enforcement not to share this info. As recovery divers we are asked the same. The reason for this or as I was told in the recovery class is that stating anything on a public forum could potentially make you an expert witness in the eyes of a lawyer or such. This would mean that potential time in the future would be spent having to testify. I don?t want that to happen to me. Enough of my time has been taken. As far as I know, there is no getting kicked off? the team?. That is just dumb. I would agree that the iucrr could do a much better job releasing reports. It was never the mission of the iucrr to do so. It just happens that in the distant past reports were released. The sole mission of the organization is to conduct forensic examination and extraction from a location where law enforcement personnel are not qualified to go. In this role, the iucrr has been very successful. It would be nice for the organization to have a reporting branch to list the incidents. Maybe someone should step forward and volunteer their time. It is after all a volunteer organization. I think it is way too much to ask of anyone to release info so soon. The managers hardly had enough time to compile all of their info and things were being unofficially released already. Again, it?s not too much to ask to wait a short time.
People deal with stress and traumatic events in many different ways. Some like to talk about it. I just wish the person that wanted the info released had done it themselves.
On the subject of self control. By releasing info to quell the ?angry mob? are we not rewarding bad behavior? There is talk of some sort of memorial for the victim at the end of the week. After that time would be a good time to start talking about the specifics of the incident. It is respectful to let people mourn. It is also respectful to let people finish their duties before sharing info.

[tbone1004]

When a recovery takes place, there are many people involved. In this case there were over a dozen. Each person has a role. When they are done paperwork is filled out. It is the job of the surface manager to put all the small stories together and create a timeline and then hand that over to law enforcement. In this case( and most others), the surface manager was on site for multiple days till late at night. That?s a lot of time. Now they still have the job to compile all this info all the while being asked by law enforcement not to share this info. As recovery divers we are asked the same. The reason for this or as I was told in the recovery class is that stating anything on a public forum could potentially make you an expert witness in the eyes of a lawyer or such. This would mean that potential time in the future would be spent having to testify. I don?t want that to happen to me. Enough of my time has been taken. As far as I know, there is no getting kicked off? the team?. That is just dumb. I would agree that the iucrr could do a much better job releasing reports. It was never the mission of the iucrr to do so. It just happens that in the distant past reports were released. The sole mission of the organization is to conduct forensic examination and extraction from a location where law enforcement personnel are not qualified to go. In this role, the iucrr has been very successful. It would be nice for the organization to have a reporting branch to list the incidents. Maybe someone should step forward and volunteer their time. It is after all a volunteer organization. I think it is way too much to ask of anyone to release info so soon. The managers hardly had enough time to compile all of their info and things were being unofficially released already. Again, it?s not too much to ask to wait a short time.
People deal with stress and traumatic events in many different ways. Some like to talk about it. I just wish the person that wanted the info released had done it themselves.
On the subject of self control. By releasing info to quell the ?angry mob? are we not rewarding bad behavior? There is talk of some sort of memorial for the victim at the end of the week. After that time would be a good time to start talking about the specifics of the incident. It is respectful to let people mourn. It is also respectful to let people finish their duties before sharing info.

I think what we are seeing with this is the pendulum swinging in the opposite direction. Too many incidents never get any information released so the "angry mob" demands information as soon as possible because the longer the wait, the less likely the incident will ever actually be reported. If there was consistency with information being released, I don't think there would be that same mentality.
IUCRR coming out with a statement that says something along the lines of
"Solo diver recovered approximately 5,800ft in Ginnie Springs on 1/23/21. Diver was on a KISS Sidewinder, loop was found in mouth, bailout was intact. No further details at this time."
Then in say 2 weeks they actually release the compiled report, I think that would suffice.
By coming from the IUCRR it protects and particular individual from being called as a witness, and by actually following up, would do it. Per the website today, Jeff Bozanic is responsible for accident analysis, when was the last one published? Also per the website, and I quote "Bottom line is, if we can post the information, we will post it." The IUCRR is choosing not to do that, and that's why I think the pendulum has swung where it is. If they followed through with what they say, then I truly believe that everything will calm down.

[farmerted]

I?m not defending anyone here, but... Its a volunteer organization. Maybe someone should step up and take Jeff?s place. The surface manager had a lot on their plate and taking the time of which they had none, to put out a statement is a lot to ask. Everyone has great ideas, but nobody wants to step forward to help improve anything. Jeff has not been involved for a very long time. On a personal note, I have thought a few times to just start a discussion about the risks of hypoxia and its various ways to appear. Maybe that?s the place people should go. Right now I?ve lost 2 days of work and am busy catching up. I also want to put a little more time behind me as well.