Any news from Ginnie today?

[farmerted]

The IUCRR cannot publish a report until the case is closed by local law enforcement. If anyone who is complaining and has bothered to request information, they would see that the case is still open. Things take time. There are toxicology results and such. Why doesn?t someone start bothering them for a right to know? I guess it is easier to just go on a forum and bad mouth the people that had to do the unpleasant part. I did say that I would publish what I know if the IUCRR did not in a timely manner. I have been told it will happen. That cannot happen until law enforcement has closed their case.

[TraviTheDiver]

Ah, so it's nonsens to worry about everything that can kill you? Right, smart move. I never read a report about someone being trapped because gravel slope sliding down so I guess I don't have to worry about dodgy looking slopes anymore.
You can learn about something being dangerous without waiting for someone to get killed.
I also never read a report about that guy last year who got his O2 disconnected accidently and fell asleep cause he didn't notice the drop in po2. So I guess I can ignore that too, since it's not in any report I don't have to worry about it.


Hahahaha, sure you keep waiting for that report to learn something, buddy.

You're misconstruing my point by implying I said that you should ONLY worry about things you read in a report.

We all can mostly agree on what can kill us (hyperoxia, hypoxia, hypercapnia, insufficient bo, etc.) but what we don't agree on is how effective different strategies are in mitigating those risks. Understanding accidents helps us evaluate the effectiveness, or lack of, of how our equipment, training and SOPs make it easier or harder to kill us. For example, we THINK gag straps are generally safer, though there is significant disagreement as to how much. Unfortunately, the only way to prove one way or the other is to study accidents.

On a side note, you're complaining in an Accident/Incident forum about people wanting more info on accidents/incidents. Kinda like walking into an AA meeting and complaining about people talking too much about alcohol.

[bent]

For example, we THINK gag straps are generally safer, though there is significant disagreement as to how much. Unfortunately, the only way to prove one way or the other is to study accidents.

I don't think you have really thought this through. If you THINK a gag strap might safer, why aren't you using one? I know of at least a couple of cases were a HUD would have likely been pretty helpful. And you're not using one of those either?

Are you really waiting for a report that tells you specifically 'A HUD/gag strap would have saved this guy'.
Is it that what you are waiting for? Without a report you can't come to the conclusion that having vital information displayed infront of your face mind be better than having it on your wrist? I'm not being facetious, I'm really asking. I don't get that.

Also, I want to read reports as much as anyone else. What I'm annoyed by is that every time there is a accident people start bitching on the internet on the same day about not getting any information.

And another point: Hardly any reports have anything to learn in them like they used to 30 years ago. There was a report posted just the other day from Mx. What have you learned from that? And why is nobody posting about any lesson they've learned. Maybe I'm too stupid to see it, I really don't. Please someone tell me.
After Richard posted the report, people hardly talked about what was in the report... people were mostly bitching about cave diving politics, good ol boy clubs and not getting reports for 40 pages in 3 or 4 threads.

[TraviTheDiver]

I don't think you have really thought this through. If you THINK a gag strap might safer, why aren't you using one? I know of at least a couple of cases were a HUD would have likely been pretty helpful. And you're not using one of those either?

Are you really waiting for a report that tells you specifically 'A HUD/gag strap would have saved this guy'.
Is it that what you are waiting for? Without a report you can't come to the conclusion that having vital information displayed infront of your face mind be better than having it on your wrist? I'm not being facetious, I'm really asking. I don't get that.

Also, I want to read reports as much as anyone else. What I'm annoyed by is that every time there is a accident people start bitching on the internet on the same day about not getting any information.

And another point: Hardly any reports have anything to learn in them like they used to 30 years ago. There was a report posted just the other day from Mx. What have you learned from that? And why is nobody posting about any lesson they've learned. Maybe I'm too stupid to see it, I really don't. Please someone tell me.
After Richard posted the report, people hardly talked about what was in the report... people were mostly bitching about cave diving politics, good ol boy clubs and not getting reports for 40 pages in 3 or 4 threads.

Dude, you're completely missing the point and either ignorantly misconstruing my points or intentionally. Either way, you're stretching to make an argument.

My basic premise is the nonsense of your statement that the details don't matter because you should worry about everything, anyway. The details of accident analysis have driven change in almost any industry that you can name, scuba diving is no exception. Our 5 basic rules come from just that. It's the "why" behind the "how", sometimes it merely serves to reinforce the "how" and sometimes it forces us to reevaluate.

I haven't read the MX one from the other day yet, but I've read numerous discussions about re-evaluating cave markings, mapping and dive procedures based on accidents in MX caves. But, that's dumb because everyone knows to just not get lost in a cave, so move on.

[bent]

Our 5 basic rules come from just that. It's the "why" behind the "how", sometimes it merely serves to reinforce the "how" and sometimes it forces us to reevaluate.

Yeah, and how old are the 5 rules? 30 years? What rules have been added since? Your response shows me that you're just repeating what everybody always says without thinking about it. What's the type of accident you're waiting for to get a HUD? Why are you evading that question?

I haven't read the MX one from the other day yet, but ...

Right, you seem to be very keen on learning from accident reports.

[oceancurrent]

In aviation, all incidents and accidents are thoroughly investigated and the reports posted in the public NTSB database with far more details than you will ever see from any cave diving accident report. Many NTSB reports provide great actionable information, some are inconclusive. Nobody in aviation ever questions the value to aviation safety improvement of making full factual reports with minute details for all incidents and accidents available to all interested. Whether the aviation reports are read or not, actionable or not, ongoing lawsuit or not - all of it is immaterial to making them available. NTSB always publishes a preliminary report very soon after an accident (weeks) and the final report typically within 12 months. Check them out https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-main-public/basic-search

Modern cave diving accident reporting is a horror (substitute expletive) show in comparison! I don't know how else to put it!

[bent]

I've heard aviation broad up a lot in this context. IMHO I don't think it's a good comparison though. AFAIK planes are fairly complex machines. Dive gear is not, we don't really have to deal with a lot of mechanical or computer failures. If you wanna look for comparable stuff, it would be better to look at climbing or skiing or other stuff.

But either way, there were lots of accidents discussed on here over the years, but I don't remember anyone pointing out any new lessons. It's seems that it always comes down the same few issues over and over again. Pretty much in every case - at least to me it seems - that the problem was always either some form of complacency or bending/breaking of generally accepted and known rules.

And of course there a some weird once where I don't really understand what happened... and therefore can't draw any conclusions. Like with the two JJ divers in the Nest a few years back. I don't how that one helped anyone be safer.

I would really like to hear what was learned from some of these accidents in recent years. Stuff any trained cave didn't already knew beforehand.

[Jim Wyatt]

In aviation, all incidents and accidents are thoroughly investigated and the reports posted in the public NTSB database with far more details than you will ever see from any cave diving accident report. Many NTSB reports provide great actionable information, some are inconclusive. Nobody in aviation ever questions the value to aviation safety improvement of making full factual reports with minute details for all incidents and accidents available to all interested.

The NTSB conducts absolutely wonderful and thorough investigations, some taking as long as two years, with investigating happening full time. The investigators are paid large salaries as far as government salaries go.

Modern cave diving accident reporting is a horror (substitute expletive) show in comparison!

The NTSB investigators are paid large salaries as far as government salaries go and they have almost infinite time to do their work. IUCRR guys are compensated ONLY by their altruism. Altruism has never paid a grocery bill, made a car payment or sent a child to school.

[TraviTheDiver]

But either way, there were lots of accidents discussed on here over the years, but I don't remember anyone pointing out any new lessons. It's seems that it always comes down the same few issues over and over again. Pretty much in every case - at least to me it seems - that the problem was always either some form of complacency or bending/breaking of generally accepted and known rules.

Dude, if you've learned everything there is and are satisfied with that, then why in the name of sweet baby Pablo are you trolling the Incident Reporting and ANALYSIS forum? Maybe change it up a bit and go to the Lost & Found forum and complain about people losing things.

[bent]

I'm not trolling, I asked you a couple of reasonable questions you don't know any answer to. Kind of a weasel move to call me a troll for that. In contrast to you, I actually read the reports that come out and think about it.