Any news from Ginnie today?

[tbone1004]

If you have all the relevant information, why don't you let us know then? YOU said it might save a life. Less barking more biting, Tom. And stop with that lame excuse 'because IUCRR wont publish a report for whatever reason'.

because I am not part of the IUCRR and I was not involved in the rescue, ergo it is not my responsibility to publish anything. I'm not going to publish anything because none of it is first hand. You know who has the first hand information? The organization that you continue to defend for some bizarre reason who claims that they are going do things for the good of the community but are failing to do them. If they don't want to do it anymore, then it is as simple to say "we are going to recover the bodies if possible and provide the information required to the law enforcement agency who mobilized us. We will not provide this documentation on our website."

So the question to you is this. The IUCRR says on their website that if they are able to post the information, they will. They are able to post this information but they won't. Why do you feel that you need to defend them?

[bent]

So the question to you is this. The IUCRR says on their website that if they are able to post the information, they will. They are able to post this information but they won't. Why do you feel that you need to defend them?

I'm not defending them, I don't even know who they are. We already got a report and the rest was at least heavily implied. What else is there? What's the information that could save someones life?

[tbone1004]

I'm not defending them, I don't even know who they are. We already got a report and the rest was at least heavily implied. What else is there? What's the information that could save someones life?

have we gotten a report? We have hearsay, but I haven't seen any actual report published. I don't know if there is any information in there that could prevent any future incidents because the actual report isn't published...

[oceancurrent]

Didn't ICURR Ken make it crystal clear already that keeping the caves clean of remains and the authorities happy is all that matters to him? Sheck and his open accident analysis philosophy is so 1980s! In the 21st century, the world is run by a mob of vicious lawyers, so he will suffer a painful litigation if he doesn't keep his mouth shut. Kapish?

[bent]

have we gotten a report? We have hearsay, but I haven't seen any actual report published. I don't know if there is any information in there that could prevent any future incidents because the actual report isn't published...

By that standard everything is hearsay. Ken has said that he relayed the info to Richard. So you know where it came from, that's good enough for me. Even before that, I didn't doubt that Richard had it from a good source and I bet you didn't either.

Maybe in some ccr courses you get taught to shut off your o2 and maybe that's not a good idea. Maybe you should really use a HUD on a mCCR. You can discuss all of those things and they probably should be discussed by someone, but you can discuss all of that regardless of what happened that day. You have a CCR, you should be able to come up with a bunch of possible scenarios that could have happened. Does it really matter which one is was?

[tbone1004]

Didn't ICURR Ken make it crystal clear already that keeping the caves clean of remains and the authorities happy is all that matters to him? Sheck and his open accident analysis philosophy is so 1980s! In the 21st century, the world is run by a mob of vicious lawyers, so he will suffer a painful litigation if he doesn't keep his mouth shut. Kapish?

then they should take all of the accident reports down and say very clearly on their website that they do not publish them. So no, that doesn't count

[mrki]

You have a CCR, you should be able to come up with a bunch of possible scenarios that could have happened. Does it really matter which one is was?

Of course it matters. You can come up with a bunch of possible scenarios, but some or most may be improbable or even practically impossible. It's the actual ones that are the ones you should worry about the most.

On another topic - can someone provide me an actual example of a legal ruling against a recovery diver/organization based on their accident report? I know your legal system is insane, but this sounds bonkers even for the US.

[bent]

You can come up with a bunch of possible scenarios, but some or most may be improbable or even practically impossible. It's the actual ones that are the ones you should worry about the most.

That makes no sense. Only because x happened in one situation doesn't make y more or less probable. You need to worry about everything that can kill you.
Nobody said anything about 'practically impossible' stuff. You just made that up.

[TraviTheDiver]

You need to worry about everything that can kill you.

This is just nonsense. What do you think drives all those discussions about gear, training, procedures, etc..? What do you think drives actual change? It's people sitting down post-accident pouring over the details to figure out how we can prevent the same from happening to others.

I was someone who was taught during a ccr class to shut off my O2 during no-vis and go semi-closed. I also don't dive with a HUD. From what I understand of this accident, I've been in very similar circumstances with very similar gear configuration and learning of what few details I know of this has led me to some good conversations around 1. shutting O2 off and 2. no stimulatory ppO2 alert.

If you've learned all there is to learn about diving, great, but don't assume for everyone else that we don't have lessons we could learn.

I'm not arguing there's more to learn from a report than what Ken said, or whether the IUCRR has a duty to release it, but I am arguing the more detail the better we can learn and drive change.

[bent]

Ah, so it's nonsens to worry about everything that can kill you? Right, smart move. I never read a report about someone being trapped because gravel slope sliding down so I guess I don't have to worry about dodgy looking slopes anymore.
You can learn about something being dangerous without waiting for someone to get killed.
I also never read a report about that guy last year who got his O2 disconnected accidently and fell asleep cause he didn't notice the drop in po2. So I guess I can ignore that too, since it's not in any report I don't have to worry about it.

What do you think drives actual change? It's people sitting down post-accident pouring over the details to figure out how we can prevent the same from happening to others.

Hahahaha, sure you keep waiting for that report to learn something, buddy.