Running Reels In Cave Class

[Kelly Jessop]

I completely agree an arrow is a bad choice and that's why I only use REMS. Unfortunately, it means nothing unless you can tell the rest of the world. I've seen a ton of people saying that an arrow is perfectly fine in classes in Mexico and France. I've also seen it in Fl.

It's an uphill battle

You are right. Accident analysis only has value if we assess the root cause of the accident and do things to address it. Running out of air and drowning is the same in America, Mexico, Europe etc. Line arrows placed in conflict have resulted in fatalities, so if we follow principles of accident analysis, do we want to continue to do it and teach? You have to ask the rule of 1/3rds, is it different for psi or bar.

[tursiops]

You have to ask the rule of 1/3rds, is it different for psi or bar.

Sorry, don't understand your point with this.

[Kelly Jessop]

Sorry, don't understand your point with this.

Frank commented there are things taught differently than what is taught in the US.

[kensuf]

Frank commented there are things taught differently than what is taught in the US.

Get three cave instructors in a room and ask them how to mark a jump, you'll get at least five different answers.

[Kelly Jessop]

Get three cave instructors in a room and ask them how to mark a jump, you'll get at least five different answers.

I don't deny this, and other techniques too. Get 10 sidemount instructors together, and get 11 opinions. There are several acceptable ways to do somethings, and that I can appreciate, but there are some things that only one correct way is possible eg 1/3rds, dissimilar tank computation etc ,so I put marking lines with line arrows in that category.

[Rich]

Just pin the jump already, it's not that hard...
And IMHO a line should be run from where you can inflate your wing and you'll hit the surface. without bouncing off a ceiling, lol. It's pure laziness not to run a primary, I run one in the Ear with multiple stages and scooters, practice makes perfect. When the SHTF the muscle memory's there...

Safe diving,

Rich

[Doby45]

I had three line arrows on my arrow/cookie holder and never used one in my class. Used a butt load of cookies..

[Nitrogenius]

Frank commented there are things taught differently than what is taught in the US.

True.. and this is what you will have to deal with diving outside of the US no matter how wrong you think it is..
there might have people died from it, ok..
but we surely agree that folks may encounter arrows facing to another exit then theirs.
How do they deal with that?
we surely all agree that when exiting a cave other teams might have created new navigational points in general jumps other mainlines etc.
how do you deal with that?
All of the above can be encountered in a full loss of vis and you still willh have to deal with it.

if cave divers die because of ONE arrow pointing in the wrong (btw which dirction is wrong now their exit or the nearest exit be8 g verified or not?) then a lot of other stuff had to go wrong and it is really questionable if such arrow would have made a diffrence or not. A team diving in areas where the direction of thearrows has changed to another exit than theirs should be very well aware on which dirction is theirs and a single contradict8ng point should not cause major concern is my position to that.
If it does then they should not be in sich area in the first place and such issue could not occur.
I am using my ‘simulated rems’ so i dont mindand i wont be a hazard to thise guys trained the US way.
But insisting that this practise is wrong will not prevent from folks act8ng like they have been taught. so it remains the same.. be prepared that this could happen and i think any instructor is well advised to let their students know that 5here is cave divers using arrows in such way. and it is NOT a few..
if you only dive in the US chances you come across that are lower, but once you leave ‘sacred earth’ it is not a matter if you encounter such arrows, just when..
All big centers in Mex train and guide that way as well as in Europe..

[Nitrogenius]

oh by the way kelly if you disagree with that practise so much, start with athe agencies..
because apparently the hated protocoll must be ok with the standards of most of the big agencies as the teaching is area specific and not agency specific and I would not believe that whole areas are all breaking standards scross agencies

[Kelly Jessop]

if cave divers die because of ONE arrow pointing in the wrong (btw which dirction is wrong now their exit or the nearest exit be8 g verified or not?) then a lot of other stuff had to go wrong and it is really questionable if such arrow would have made a diffrence or not. A team diving in areas where the direction of thearrows has changed to another exit than theirs should be very well aware on which dirction is theirs and a single contradict8ng point should not cause major concern is my position to that.
..

The accident in question happened in Madison around the time the half hitch shifted/collapsed, and sent fine silt through out the system. The line was run through the half hitch,but there was a line arrow facing the wrong direction. I say the wrong direction because at this point there is only way out since there is no exit point going further into the cave. This occurred about the time the Nitek computer came out, and the data was down loaded. The data showed these two divers traversed back and forth between line arrows that were in conflict, and they had stirred up a lot of silt in the process. These guys burned up a lot of gas trying to make an exit, gas they needed to make a safe exit. This line arrow placed the wrong way was done in haste for repair, not intentionally. Bottom line, a line arrow placed in contradiction to the existing line arrows is completely unnecessary since other markers are available, but even if there is nothing but line arrows to use, there is no excuse to place something on the line that causes navigational confusion.