Yes
Yes, but with these suggestions and I will explain
No
No, I am angry, and I will explain
It is a section; I don't have an issue with it and I support the the relationship 100%. Full disclosure, I am not a member of the CDS (but member of the NSS) as there is a constant history of DBags (or Capt. DBag) running the CDS. However, I hear it has changed a bit.Originally Posted by DMoore
Return of the NACD
I do not understand the issue either. Cave divers come and go The ones making the most noise about stuff usually go after a couple years. Just my opinion. It has worked this long together why change it? If they can not afford a few dollars for the NSS maybe they can not afford diving. Usually it is the same people complaining about price to dive somewhere that are sporting the latest gear. Just my opinion. Did not mean to rant.
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roadkill
Well I guess it strongly correlates to the "type" of cave diver one is..
I for instance am a diver that ventured into cave diving.
So for me the emphasis is in diving.. A cave I dive in for me is "another" (very interesting and mostly quite spectacular) place to dive in..
So my interest is very focused around the diving aspects and not "caving" aspects.
It might be completely different for cave divers that are dry cavers as well or ventured into cave diving from caving..
For me with an emphasis on diving I have very little interest to support a large organization (NSS) that is promoting and supporting areas I have little interest (dry caving - and maybe that interest changes one day) where the CDS is a section of as the name already states which also results in a fee structure that more than 50% of the dues is not going to the section I am interested in but to the larger organization.
And this has nothing to do with the absolute amount but with the "principle" of it..
i.e. of course I can afford the app. $50 yearly dues for the NSS CDS.. but I am not happy if only $20 of theses go to the CDS and the rest is "lost" for "my cause"..
I'd be perfectly happy to pay $50 if all that money would go to the organization that I am interested in.
However I can also understand folks that say this is simply as it is and it is good that the CDS is part of the NSS.. so live with it or don't..
Which is ok as well, but then that organisation dies not suit well to me, which is why a working sensefull pure non profit cave diving organization like the NACD potentially could be is of interest..
Hope this clarifies a bit
I'm a caver that became a diver and then a cave diver, and was a member of the NSS well before I joined the CDS in 2004. I believe that even for those who are interested in caves only as places to dive and have no interest in "dry" caves, there is substantial benefit to the CDS in being part of a stable organization with 75 years of history and 10,000+ members.
there is a conflict with regards to training that many have an issue with. NSS is not a training organization and many don't believe the CDS should be either *myself included*. It was glossed over decades ago but I don' think is relevant anymore. Myself and many others would much rather the CDS get out of training which alienates people and become a true all-inclusive group that sets minimum cave training standards and focuses on land-owner relations, conservation, etc.
I wasn't impressed with the lack of help received from the NSS with the lawsuit a few years ago either
I'm perfectly fine with NSS and CDS, I'm members of both. I think many cave divers do not get a good explanation of the importance of what the NSS is and does, so they are left to believe it offers no benefit to them or the cave diving community.
We need more voices to protect not just our access, but the land and the waters. I'm not sure if the NACD can truly become one of those voices and work with others to be part of the solution or if it's just making useless noise.
Jeff Rouse
Chicago, IL
When I got cave diving training I specifically chose an agency that was devoted to cave diving and not a dive training organization that did cave diving as one of many things.
I actually chose the instructor (Michael O'Leary) rather than the agency, but he was the president of the NACD at the time and also an NSS-CDS instructor. So my certs are from both agencies. Maybe it's just one of my admittedly numerous quirks, but I'd prefer to deal with a non-profit member controlled agency than a for profit company.
I wish it was that high (~2004 it was 10K+). Currently, we are at 8,543. That is down ~500 from 2017 (9,082)
https://caves.org/committee/membersh...Statistics.pdf
I wish it was that high. Currently, we are at 8,543
https://caves.org/committee/membersh...Statistics.pdf
Seems like it was 11,000 not too many years ago - or maybe that was wishful remembering on my part. At least Tracy and I are two of them.
This is not meant to be a disrespectful comment,but the CDS leadership has to be actively involved in the NSS and understand the import, before the CDS membership can appreciate it. I am not singling out any particular board, but in my experience I can count on one hand the number of CDS leadership members that have been involved in the NSS , and attended NSS events. This goes back to the basic problem, we are divers who enter caves, and are trained as divers.
"Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick
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