What has happened to...

[Cindy]

I haven't given up either. I just see more talking than work and that worries me. Cindy

[John L.]

What about a sign-in book at each site like they have at Eagles Nest? Including the instructor's name if offering a class.

[Jim Wyatt]

How many of you were allowed to hit the overhead & the bottom during your cave training?

If you are a cave instructor how many of your students do you allow to hit?

If you were allowed to hit & bang around did you realize that was bad? Do you realize now that it was bad?

Did you report your instructor to his/her training agency for allowing you to hit & still issue you a cave cert?

From the time I first issued a cave certification in 1975 the rule was not to hit the bottom or the overhead, nor to allow students to do so. As far as I can see that training requirement has not changed.

[Angie Reim]

How many of you were allowed to hit the overhead & the bottom during your cave training?

I don't know of a soul that was 'allowed' to hit the walls. #### happens though and God help you if the instructor caught you! Because #### would happen after class too. The ahhh....military approach to the problem is the usual answer. ""GET YOUR ASS BACK IN THERE AND DO IT RIGHT (Peanut brain)!! --- I swear my mind heard the word soldier--- Took me two tries to get it right. I have witnessed #### hitting the fan for many other students over the years for similar reasons. So there you go. In my opinion most instructors are exonerated. The really hard ass instructors are out there and well worth it. Certainly the instructors that I have been privileged to dive with were. If they can piss you off enough to make you do it right just to cheese 'em off. Everybody wins! Just like the military.........

Angie

[Gary]

How many of you were allowed to hit the overhead & the bottom during your cave training?

Hit the walls? My god, we were afraid for our lives if we dared wave our hands - much less stir up any silt or actually touch anything. My buddy was afraid he'd fail the course for clearing problems trying to descend on a couple of dives one day despite passing the written exam with 100% - and that was at cavern!

Of course that was 15 years ago. The things I've seen in divers and instructors in the last 8 years has been sad and terrible. Instructors telling the students a cave was considered "sacrificial". A few years ago a student at the apprentice going to full level whose technique and buoyancy control led to their fins practically striking the bottom of the cave in a full OW flutter kick every kick form Olsen to beyond the crossover tunnel where we got our from behind them. Good vis is was reduced to near 10' vis across the whole tunnel and the instructor continued with the dive without yanking the idiot out of the cave and allowing the damage to continue. We were horrified: this was a well known (or even famous) instructor and there was now reason for such bad technique or lax oversight. I can only imagine their commitment to the cave conservation has been eroded by fees paid for a private course. We were horrified.

The chances of this issue ever getting fixed comprehensively though are near ZERO. There is no likelihood that the agencies are going to stop allowing fees to be charged for courses as Jason has suggested: http://cavediver.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=24833#24833 or that the agencies will institute sweeping fixes to address the problems with their instructors or training: http://cavediver.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=24817#24817.

I would agree with Jason that the problem is fueled by money. Some instructors are filling their schedules with paid training and there is little mentoring going on after training as far as I can see - just a big money grab.

After visiting Mexico and seeing how blatantly they are exploiting their caves to generate money it has only made me see the cave training here here the same way. It's a race to see how much money can be generated by the worst exploiters before the caves are so damaged that they are closed or not worth visiting anymore. The exploitation is not just by instructors but also by land owners, farmers, and the state wanting to draw off water to spray their fields and send drinking water south - by comparision the instructors are benign.

15 years ago the vis in the caves in FL was much better - almost like the vis in Mexico. The vis in the caves we visited in Mexico was just incredible. But if Mexico continues to exploit their caves and aquifer like we have done and are still doing their caves will one day be as bad as ours or worse. Caves with no flow anymore, handprints and damaged formations everywhere.

Certain individuals stand out as true protectors of the caves and they have my admiration but I think that cave training has to evolve to something much greater then keeping OW divers from dieing by teaching safe cave diving techniques and handing out a certification card.

[Herbie]

Note: the following has been edited by a moderator.

the problem is the HUMAN FACTOR, more traffic, more damage, simple. all you that claim to never have touched or bumped walls, ceilings or floor. The training is watered down, yeah, the equipment is better so any simpleton has the chance to feel safe, Halcyon, Dive Rite, etc. are making big bucks promoting tech diving, the movies have promoted cave diving. you are cave diving, who are you to do that?
Stop whining, you want to save caves, STOP ENTERING THEM! Oh did I just say that, yes I did . take care .

[Rich]

My thoughts on this matter are this....

How much of a benefit is this to the cave community to air conservation issues such as these in public when it is common knowledge that these forums are monitored by people who are interested in finding any excuse to shut down cave diving altogether.

Maybe these issues would be better discussed in private among ourselves. Just some food for thought....

Safe diving,

Rich

[Cave Ranger]

I agree with Herbie in the sense that the only "true" way to save the fragile cave environment is to ban all human activity. It doesn't matter if your the Captain America of Cave divers with flawless technique...You still have some sort of negative impact on the Cave environment just by your presence. You are a foreign invader to an alien world.
I would like to think that most of us do as best as we can to limit our impact on the Caves but for anyone to think that their superior skills make them an innocent non-factor in negatively impacting the Cave environment you would be arrogant and/or delusional.
On the bright side I didn't tell anyone :P

P.S. I agree with Rich more.

[Angie Reim]

Hit the walls? My god, we were afraid for our lives if we dared wave our hands - much less stir up any silt or actually touch anything. My buddy was afraid he'd fail the course for clearing problems trying to descend on a couple of dives one day despite passing the written exam with 100% - and that was at cavern!

One instructor told me if one of his students began 'hand finning' he would hold his or her hand during the dive. Not say anything - just hold hands. Seemed to make quite an impression on his students. Can you imagine the thoughts going through each students' mind until they figured out why he was holding their hand? I thought it was a great story.

[Gary]

One instructor told me if one of his students began 'hand finning' he would hold his or her hand during the dive. Not say anything - just hold hands. Seemed to make quite an impression on his students. Can you imagine the thoughts going through each students' mind until they figured out why he was holding their hand? I thought it was a great story.

My instructor would grab you by the chest straps, yank you up face to face and YELL thru his regulator so loud in your face "STOP MOVING YOUR HANDS!" that when you were released your hands flew to your chest straps of their own volition and hung on for the remainder of the course.

An effective technique.