What has happened to...

[Tegg]

Here are a couple of ideas guaranteed to get nowhere:

1. Limit the number of students an instructor can certify in a calendar year. This would probably increase the amount of time the instructor spent with each student.

2. Specify a minimum number of dives (for instance, twelve) a student must make after attaining each level before taking the next course. This would eliminate the "Zero to Hero" courses.

Again, guaranteed to get nowhere.

Sludge, This will be a first.

I agree and have stated these two things time and time again.

Of course then again, how could certain instructors make a "decent" living only teaching enough students to make $50K instead of $100K?

[Angie Reim]

regarding the efficacy of remediation. Bill Huth

Bill, I think you lost about half of our readers with that one.

Yeah. Don't know how well it works on underwater caves. I do know it's not worth beans in the public school system.....

Any way....for cave systems it sounds like a worthwhile study and a positive PR vehicle for the cave diving community. Maybe one of the state park/agencies would encourage a study group. I don't have the wherewithal for it but it sounds like Bill might.......ya'll go check it out. 8)

[wingman]

regarding the efficacy of remediation. Bill Huth

Bill, I think you lost about half of our readers with that one.

Yeah. Don't know how well it works on underwater caves. I do know it's not worth beans in the public school system.....

Any way....for cave systems it sounds like a worthwhile study and a positive PR vehicle for the cave diving community. Maybe one of the state park/agencies would encourage a study group. I don't have the wherewithal for it but it sounds like Bill might.......ya'll go check it out. 8)

With regard to remedial work in the schools, people are much harder to remediate than limerock, mud, clay, silt, etc. Some nice work has been done remediating dry cave and indian pictographs and petroglyphs that have been vandalized with modern "jerk was here" scratchings on the rock. The NSS has grant funds available for cave remediation projects (usually dry cave). It would be interesting to close off a tunnel for a specific period and then work at documenting and fixing damage with a serious quantity of before and after video monitoring. A nicely damaged tunnel that would work at ginnie might be in the double lines area (i do not think that this area gets a lot of student traffic). I think that one side of that has already had the line removed for a while and the current line area is in pretty bad shape, i will check on the history of lines in that area and will work on putting together a proposal for a study at ginnie and perhaps jb...will be at jb on thursday and heading down to ginnie this weekend to stay for a couple of weeks and will discuss aspects with the powers that be...anyone else interested just get in touch....Bill Huth

[Limestone Cowboy]

Of course then again, how could certain instructors make a "decent" living only teaching enough students to make $50K instead of $100K?

Invent more BS classes?

[stickydeco]

How do we fix it? Why are students advancing to Intro, apprentice and full when they can't stay off the ceiling or out of the mud?



Hi Mike: Hey, Jackie and I were in OG, a headin on over to Olsen when we both witnessed most of that mess happening. It occurred on 03/20/06 as noted in our Log Books. I watched, as what appeared to be some kind of class (I have to think it had to be Intro or higher because most of it happened within the 200-500 ft zone of the tunnel) with about 3 of the students taking HUGE chunks out of the ceiling. You are not BSing one bit about this. Also, the floor looked like someone had gone to Home Depot and bought one of those 50 lb sacks of lime chips and sprinkled them down to make a "path"..for several hundred feet! I'm pretty sure that I told Cathy about it that day. I did not recognize who this "instructor" was, but I'll tell you what. I'm certainly no Cave Instructor and don't wanna be, BUT if it had been me doing that class....I would have turned it the first time I saw that #### going on, BUT they just kept going in and knocking more ceiling down (and must have also done it to going out, as confirmed by us the next day.....based on where the "boulders" were laying and the fresh marks up-top).

What a mess.

See you in 2 weeks.

Idiot Jack

[Angie Reim]

With regard to remedial work in the schools, people are much harder to remediate than limerock, mud, clay, silt, etc.

That was my point......

Wouldn't it be better for folks to talk of a solution

Hey ya'll.........watch your bouyancy control.

Meanwhile, I'm doing what I can to keep my bouyancy control in peak condition. I avoid fragile places when it's not (like during a tune up dive). I look but don't touch zero flow areas to avoid disturbing stuff. It annoys the hell out of me when I screw up (even just a little). Clay banks and like are off limits. I do what I can to support positive community attitude toward cave conservation and restoration. I donate monies when I can and I presume that 99% of the rest of cavers do as well.



Angie

[andrebasso]

The trick is:

Stay right behind your buddy. Get in your buddy's eddie and let him/her do all the work.

The human scooter. hehe

[Angie Reim]

The trick is:

Stay right behind your buddy. Get in your buddy's eddie and let him/her do all the work.

The human scooter. hehe

Yeah that works too.....

[Kelly Jessop]

With regard to remedial work in the schools, people are much harder to remediate than limerock, mud, clay, silt, etc.

That was my point......



Meanwhile, I'm doing what I can to keep my bouyancy control in peak condition. I avoid fragile places when it's not (like during a tune up dive). I look but don't touch zero flow areas to avoid disturbing stuff. It annoys the hell out of me when I screw up (even just a little). Clay banks and like are off limits. I do what I can to support positive community attitude toward cave conservation and restoration. I donate monies when I can and I presume that 99% of the rest of cavers do as well.



Angie

I guess one could say who cares what the caves look like,because when the water quality erodes,who is going to be able to see a wall or ceiling anyway.
Maybe I am utopian,but I feel the we should be able to have our cake and eat it too,have cave preservation,and conservation such as water shed,clear cutting etc;almost mutually exclusive concepts.
I will always have a concern for the physical condition of the caves. Just as I am concerned with global warming and pollution destroying the reefs,I stay a safe distance away from so I don't cause contact and damage to the reef.
I agree with what you are saying in concept. Line in a cave is almost like a trail,and as long as we stay in those areas we are limiting attrition to those areas.

[Angie Reim]

Ah hell......I just read the next thread about Cave Conservation. I have not dove Orange Grove in about 6 months. I'd say the instructors would know best. I have not seen the damage and now it looks like I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground.

That's what I get for missing a beat. Previous posts have been edited appropriately. Sorry folks. Doggonnit - maybe I'll be back in a few weeks when I get over it.......