Public annoucement of line changes

[Kelly Jessop]

We had this happen on a recent dive in Peacock a month or so ago. We entered P1 planning to do the wishbone circuit. At some point we came across an arrow facing the opposite direction and didn't think much of it. Then the arrow, shortly after, switched back to the original, exiting direction. This was a bit confusing but the whole team noticed and confirmed the arrow changes. Later on we were hanging out at Dive Outpost and asked DJ and he said sometimes you find this. It was not a big deal since we all noticed it but I could see this causing confusion if it were missed or even worse finding this in zero visibility. I don't understand the logic behind doing this at all.

A double fatality was facilitated by a line arrow facing the wrong way. From computer downloads it was discovered the team went back and forth over a certain area, and conflicting line arrows were more likely the cause of the confusion

[LMN]

Is this the first circuit you come to in JB?


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I don?t see how your question has anything to do with the line change but the answer is no.

[Diverlee]

I don?t see how your question has anything to do with the line change but the answer is no.

Thank you. I sent pm with my reason for asking.


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[patpicos]

And speaking of line changes announcements, I heard that the Sweet Passage line in JB is now a continuous circuit, with the line coming from the left being extended and T'd into the line coming from the right, close to the far end, thus obviating the need for a jump reel in the low and silty areas at both ends. I did not verify that.

I dove sweet passage on 05/13 and can confirm that the Sweet Passage is a full loop aka circuit and that is only at the end of it. Its a very short loop. IMHO that location should be a loop and no jumps. Get to the T, cookie it, swim straight ahead and you will basically loop clockwise back to your cookie.

What worried me more are the yellow lines in the area which are T'd off into the lines, but lead into areas where you pretty much have to grovel thru the mud and there's already evidence of such which is a shame since the whole area is gorgeous. Those lines are "shortcuts" between existing lines and don't really anything useful for divers to visit.

[Nitrogenius]

Don't know. I read this frequently on Scubaboard's cave diving subforum. Usually the comment is prefaced by, "I was taught" or "My instructor taught me". There is some argument that there are permanent line arrows and personal line arrows that people have marked in some way. The rationale that a personal line arrow can contradict a permanent line arrow, especially if an exit up ahead hasn't been verified. My thoughts, in a lights out, or zero viz situation, especially when you are stressed, nobody will tell the difference between permanent and personal line arrows. Conventional wisdom is that all line arrows should be consistent, and use nondirectional markers for something different.

Well I am one of those that have been taught that own arrows may contradict permanent arrows. As would likely ALL other divers that have not been trained in FL..
FL is the only area know to me that handles it that way. Europe, Mexico is teaching to tie an offboard jump in the middle of the line that does not have an arrow pointing towards your exit, to place an arrow towards your exit tie the line into it and make the connection.
The alternative is using a Rem, which eliminates the issue of course. I have a system with Cookies that I can use when I am diving in your neck of the woods and such situation would occur, because of course I would respect local rules..
But please be aware that this is by far NOT a universal rule but very specific to Fl (and potentially all US) cave diving. But once you leave that area you might very much encounter such situations.
As the offboard jump is the only situation this occurs I am sorry to say that but if a diver is not able to understand a contradicting arrow with a line tied into ist as an individual and not permanent arrow then such diver should likely not be there in the first place.
Also what is the is the issue with contradicting (your exit direction) arrows? You negate hose with your cookie and move on..
With the described jump you would have to place a cookie once you come across it no matter what as it will represent a T no matter which direction the arrow is pointing in which it is tied in..


Y'all may flame away now.. it is not gonna change how things are taught in other areas of the world!
Ever since I discovered this difference (because for one taught that different school your attitude towards it is completely surprising) I had been paying specific attention to it and ask every instructor I come across how they teach it. It is a complete regional thing.. I just recently dicussed this with my old instructor I did Full Cave with who I had not been back with in 7 years.. same outcome.. Also my instrcutors in Mexico same thing..
Don't expect things to be the same when you travel.. this also applies to cave diving

[rob191]

Also what is the is the issue with contradicting (your exit direction) arrows? You negate hose with your cookie and move on..
With the described jump you would have to place a cookie once you come across it no matter what as it will represent a T no matter which direction the arrow is pointing in which it is tied in..

Obviously. Until the jump with contradicting arrow is placed AFTER you're already past that point and then you're in a zero vis exit on the way back and second guessing the proper way out when you get to that new conflicting arrow.

I was also trained in Mexico and trained to use arrows on the main line for my exit even if they contradict but a good point is raised here where that could lead to issues for others. I guess if everyone used rems and nobody placed arrows in any direction (because you'd have the same problem with a new arrow pointed in the "proper exit direction" if it was not your exit direction and you had not canceled because it was not there on the way in) then the issue would be solved.

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[allen]

My solution to marking my return direction when it differs from the permanent line arrows is a "directional cookie." This is a cookie with notches filed into it. I place the cookie with the notches away from my intended exit route. Since this is a personal code, it doesn't confuse someone who is following the line arrows.

[jebernot]

Well I am one of those that have been taught that own arrows may contradict permanent arrows. As would likely ALL other divers that have not been trained in FL..
FL is the only area know to me that handles it that way. Europe, Mexico is teaching to tie an offboard jump in the middle of the line that does not have an arrow pointing towards your exit, to place an arrow towards your exit tie the line into it and make the connection.
The alternative is using a Rem, which eliminates the issue of course. I have a system with Cookies that I can use when I am diving in your neck of the woods and such situation would occur, because of course I would respect local rules..
But please be aware that this is by far NOT a universal rule but very specific to Fl (and potentially all US) cave diving. But once you leave that area you might very much encounter such situations.
As the offboard jump is the only situation this occurs I am sorry to say that but if a diver is not able to understand a contradicting arrow with a line tied into ist as an individual and not permanent arrow then such diver should likely not be there in the first place.
Also what is the is the issue with contradicting (your exit direction) arrows? You negate hose with your cookie and move on..
With the described jump you would have to place a cookie once you come across it no matter what as it will represent a T no matter which direction the arrow is pointing in which it is tied in..


Y'all may flame away now.. it is not gonna change how things are taught in other areas of the world!
Ever since I discovered this difference (because for one taught that different school your attitude towards it is completely surprising) I had been paying specific attention to it and ask every instructor I come across how they teach it. It is a complete regional thing.. I just recently dicussed this with my old instructor I did Full Cave with who I had not been back with in 7 years.. same outcome.. Also my instrcutors in Mexico same thing..
Don't expect things to be the same when you travel.. this also applies to cave diving

I can assure you this is NOT just a Florida thing or a Mexico thing. To contradict the arrow scheme for a personal navigational decision is batty, off the wall, and flat out stupid. Whoever is teaching this needs to stop. Line arrows should point to the nearest exit. If that is not your exit, mark it accordingly with a cookie or REM. DO NOT CONTRADICT THE EXISTING SYSTEM LINE ARROWS.

SAVE A LIFE, BE A COOKIE MONSTER

[Kelly Jessop]

I can assure you this is NOT just a Florida thing or a Mexico thing. To contradict the arrow scheme for a personal navigational decision is batty, off the wall, and flat out stupid. Whoever is teaching this needs to stop. Line arrows should point to the nearest exit. If that is not your exit, mark it accordingly with a cookie or REM. DO NOT CONTRADICT THE EXISTING SYSTEM LINE ARROWS.

SAVE A LIFE, BE A COOKIE MONSTER

Couldn't agree more. Don't know why we keep seeing discussions with the comment," My instructor taught me that my personal line arrows should point in the direction of my travel....." even though that contradicts existing line arrows. Accident analysis says that we learn from an accident, and so that death isn't meaningless, we apply these lessons learned. Two cave divers DIED in Madison Blue and a contributing cause was a line facing opposite the exit. We know they swam back and forth between line arrows pointing in opposite directions, because their dive computer depths validated this. This lost time in gas could have been the difference between a close call and dead.

[LMN]

Two cave divers DIED in Madison Blue and a contributing cause was a line facing opposite the exit. We know they swam back and forth between line arrows pointing in opposite directions, because their dive computer depths validated this. This lost time in gas could have been the difference between a close call and dead.

I've heard this before but I don't know details about the actual dive. All I know, and I might be wrong, it is that it was inferred that the arrow pointing in the other direction led to their death based on their dive profile showing that they kept going back and forth through the Half Hitch. If that is the case, when does one stop going back and forth between contradicting arrows? When does one says "screw it, I've felt this arrows before and it makes no sense" and decides to go past the arrow that points the opposite way just to see/feel a second directional arrow? I've been through Half Hitch, it is not something one would not remember going back through it. It changes depth on both ends going through it and the upstream and downstream ends are very different, one could not mistake which direction they were going even in zero viz.