Public annoucement of line changes

[Kelly Jessop]

I've heard this before but I don't know details about the actual dive. All I know, and I might be wrong, it is that it was inferred that the arrow pointing in the other direction led to their death based on their dive profile showing that they kept going back and forth through the Half Hitch. If that is the case, when does one stop going back and forth between contradicting arrows? When does one says "screw it, I've felt this arrows before and it makes no sense" and decides to go past the arrow that points the opposite way just to see/feel a second directional arrow? I've been through Half Hitch, it is not something one would not remember going back through it. It changes depth on both ends going through it and the upstream and downstream ends are very different, one could not mistake which direction they were going even in zero viz.

There are a lot of factors to this episode (and having to go from memory). The half hitch had shifted, though it never really collapsed, and this deposited fine clay silt through out the area,which caused an easy silt out. The line through the area was repaired with white line to re-route it, and that is where I understand the line arrow facing the wrong way was seen. The divers were from up north, and were 1-2 time a year cave divers, so things like knowledge of the system, peak skills for anti-silting etc may not been 100%. All these things became the perfect storm of Murphy. The Nitek computer was fairly new with the ability to download profiles, and it showed they had gone back and forth, with conflicting line arrows being an issue. Somewhere along the way they figured out that problem because must have felt the half hitch had shifted again, because they tried to no-mount through one of the areas off to the side. The question was how much time/air was lost because of navigating conflicting line arrows, which could have helped a self rescue. When does one say ,"screw it"- remember when you are stressed, and in low viz etc, your rationalization skills are impaired. This was an accident, with many things going wrong on different levels. What is scary is there are people actually training other cave divers that putting a conflicting line arrow on the line is okay, and there is difference between a permanent line arrow that exists already, a personal line arrow you place for your use, and contradiction is okay. I remember having to swim out over 2000ft back in JB when a collapse blew out the system and had inches of viz. I am thankful I had line arrows to aide my navigation and didn't have to deal with a confusing/conflicting line arrows.

[Nitrogenius]

Whoever is teaching this needs to stop.

Good luck teaching the Rest of World to do it different than what is currently taught..
My personal bet would be you wont succeed, so maybe just keep in th eback of your head that you might encounter such situation if you are diving elsewhere than FL..


The latter was the only intention in regards to my comment. I did not want to discuss whether what is taught elsewhere on this world is right or wrong!
I already stated that personally I work with my own cookie system.
But when I am for example taking a guide in Mx I will not interfere with them doing it their way (which are usually all also Cave instructors - and certainly I am not in a position to tell them being wrong)
If you think this is wrong and want to have it changed in the ROW the path to do it would be via the training agencies, and here I can state from personal experience that at least IANTD and their instructors are teaching it in the way I had decribed..

[Nitrogenius]

Couldn't agree more. Don't know why we keep seeing discussions with the comment," My instructor taught me that my personal line arrows should point in the direction of my travel....." even though that contradicts existing line arrows. Accident analysis says that we learn from an accident, and so that death isn't meaningless, we apply these lessons learned. Two cave divers DIED in Madison Blue and a contributing cause was a line facing opposite the exit. We know they swam back and forth between line arrows pointing in opposite directions, because their dive computer depths validated this. This lost time in gas could have been the difference between a close call and dead.

Again.. maybe you are tired of this discussion, and there is no doubt that to your view this is wrong.
However it does not change the FACT (not alternative fact) that it is being taught differently in other parts of the world and when you encounter divers that have been taught this way they might actually do as they are taught!


or in other words: only because you disagree with it is not going to change it

[Nitrogenius]

What is scary is there are people actually training other cave divers that putting a conflicting line arrow on the line is okay, and there is difference between a permanent line arrow that exists already, a personal line arrow you place for your use, and contradiction is okay.

Just to be clear it is not only taught contradicting is "ok" it is taught that this is the actual only correct way to do it when working with arrows.. The possibility of a REm is being mentioned nowadays though.. There might nowadays even be a shift towards promoting to preferably to use a REM, but the fall back would be the arrow and it will be taught that the correcdt way to place such personal arrow is towards your exit no matter what!
I have to mention that it is also trained in no vis scenarios to deal with potentially contradicting arrows and to differentiate between a permanent and personal arrow in no vis etc.


Again I am not saying that this school is right nor I am saying it is utterly wrong though I am only pointing out it does exist and in my personal observation it is the majority of instructors outside US!


Talking about scary, one could add it is scary that there seems to be little awareness that this school exists and it is scary if divers are not trained to deal with contradicting arrows... Just saying..

[Kelly Jessop]

Again.. maybe you are tired of this discussion, and there is no doubt that to your view this is wrong.
However it does not change the FACT (not alternative fact) that it is being taught differently in other parts of the world and when you encounter divers that have been taught this way they might actually do as they are taught!


or in other words: only because you disagree with it is not going to change it

Honestly, I am not tired of discussing this, because the more people understand how FAS it is, they will realize it is a safety issue. Even having a difference between a permanent and personal line arrows as a potential justification is equally as FAS. In a stressful situation where there could be silt, lights out, air share who is going to stop and feel each line arrow and see if this arrow has a notch, two holes drilled, magic angel glitter to differentiate it from permanent line arrows- why do I want to slow a team performing an emergency egress and task them with this. I know the people who created the line arrow, and the purpose was intended to point to the closest exit. Please buy REMs, buy cookies.......

[Rich]

Honestly, I am not tired of discussing this....magic angel glitter

Neither am I, Kelly and LMAO at the second part...

Safe diving,

Rich

[Nitrogenius]

So when the intention of the inventors of the Sparrow was always to point to the closest exit, what is one supposed to do in emergency? Head to such closest exit even when it is an unidentified exit?
There would be examples where the latter also already had killed people..
and if one should not head for the closest exit even it is unknown, why is it important that the arrow points to the closest exit?

Again I am all for a Rem or 'remed' cookie solution, but it dies not change the fact that people are being taught to place an arrow towards their exit direction placing a Jump no matter what and discussion it here wont change that especially since nur seems most here are on the same page. If this is such an important safety issue, then it should be Adresse to the training agencies and they would have to each out to their instructors..

[Kelly Jessop]

So when the intention of the inventors of the Sparrow was always to point to the closest exit, what is one supposed to do in emergency? Head to such closest exit even when it is an unidentified exit?

If someone is being a prudent cave diver then exits are known and checked. Performing progressive penetration and learning the cave, because line doesn't guarantee an exit. Doing a traverse and testing it from one direction, which means verifying exits, before completing the whole traverse.

There would be examples where the latter also already had killed people..

What examples?

why is it important that the arrow points to the closest exit?

Why does the arrow point a particular direction for a one way street? Why is there an arrow coming off I75 to head to High Springs? Why does the arrow on map always point to north? It is for navigation purposes, and that is why the line arrow was created. We kept the clothes pin, as well as cookie/REM later.

not change the fact that people are being taught to place an arrow towards their exit direction placing a Jump no matter what and discussion it here wont change that especially since nur seems most here are on the same page..

You are right it is being taught, and threads like this give visibility to that fact. Anybody that has an instructor that has been taught something other than the mainstream convention really needs to challenge what they have been taught by that person, and make sure their skills and knowledge haven't put them at risk. Just like sidemount became a fad in the OW industry, instructors would buy equipment and learn from a course director one weekend, and start teaching the next weekend, we have some similar issues in cave diving- so when picking an instructor caveat emptor.

[Nitrogenius]

If someone is being a prudent cave diver then exits are known and checked. Performing progressive penetration and learning the cave, because line doesn't guarantee an exit. Doing a traverse and testing it from one direction, which means verifying exits, before completing the whole traverse.

With that nowadays exploration would likely get nowhere. Are they not prudent ?
Also does not really fall in line with what is happening on a daily basis in Mexico, but I get your point.
And of course once the penetration was slowly progressive and unknown exit might become a known exit, but then it is exactly that a known exit and not what you meant. What do you do in an emergency with arrows pointing to an unknown exit. if unknown you should not tempt that exit but us your exit as you know you can pass and if following establish gas rules you should also have sufficient gas to make that exit, which you don't with the unknown exit. Might be a deeper passage and thus it might be shorter/closer but you still need more gas or it might have restrictions that you simply wont be able to pass. Having said that, what's the personal worth in such situation to have it pointed towards the closest exit?

What examples?

Well pretty much all those recent and past Kalimba accidents come to mind. Of course those had other issues as well, but they all had some correlation to making a decision to head for a different exit than the own.. The last accident there even involved a friend of mine.

You are right it is being taught, and threads like this give visibility to that fact. Anybody that has an instructor that has been taught something other than the mainstream convention really needs to challenge what they have been taught by that person, and make sure their skills and knowledge haven't put them at risk. Just like sidemount became a fad in the OW industry, instructors would buy equipment and learn from a course director one weekend, and start teaching the next weekend, we have some similar issues in cave diving- so when picking an instructor caveat emptor.

hmm I would strongly argue the fact that this is a result of "poorly educated" instructors. It is simply a different school that is being followed it is being taught that way by the highest respected instructors in cave diving in other areas of the world starting as close to the US as Mexico.
By the way I am all for this discussion to further safe practices in cave diving, but why I seem to be unsuccessful to really given your reactions is that this is a topic in regards to school by region and not "some bad apples"

[bent]

FL is the only area know to me that handles it that way. Europe, Mexico is teaching ...

How would you know what's been taught in Europe? That one guy who also teaches sidemount with two backplates might teach that. That's only in Sardinia. Were else in Europe have you been trained to do that Frank?