Orange Grove Question

[nakatomi]

Actually I was talking about one last year, but I don't know for a fact that was what happened. It was just my own theory about how the events could have happened.

The information on last year's accident in OG was that a team of two did a visual jump to the distance tunnel line, possibly silted the passage out and could have had issues returning back to the gold line. They continued on the gold line towards the exit when the fatality happened, supposedly due to one of the sidemount tanks being turned off.
It is, in my opinion, very unlikely that they got onto the distance tunnel by accident, especially since one in the team was (to my information) a cave instructor.

One is gold with some brown/tannic staining and one is white dyed brown from silt and tannins, if you are not paying attention (lacking line awareness) yes it is entirely possible to not realize you've jumped from dirty yellow line to dirty white line and not immediately realize it.

A man in P3 made an accidental jump and his name was one of the surveyors listed on the map for p3. Yes, it's possible to fudge things up if you are not paying attention.

The line awareness issue I would of course agree with. On the other hand the distance tunnel jump is not a very tricky area for anyone with a normal level of awareness.

As to the PIII accident, if I remember that correctly the diver was a student who had been left by himself at the top of the jump to Hendley's castle. The instructor had gone deeper with another student and left the second student at the top. The diver attempted to exit on his own and jumped onto an alternate line and eventually ran out of gas.
PIII is a different beast due to visibility and general conditions of silt and particulate on the line so I can see a mistake like that happen. Also this specific jump has been pulled back since.

[kensuf]

The information on last year's accident in OG was that a team of two did a visual jump to the distance tunnel line, possibly silted the passage out and could have had issues returning back to the gold line. They continued on the gold line towards the exit when the fatality happened, supposedly due to one of the sidemount tanks being turned off.
It is, in my opinion, very unlikely that they got onto the distance tunnel by accident, especially since one in the team was (to my information) a cave instructor.

Cave instructor?? Really?? It's amazing how gossip and rumor blow out of proportion.

"Did you hear about the surfer dude that pulled a gun on Mister Hand?"

The line awareness issue I would of course agree with. On the other hand the distance tunnel jump is not a very tricky area for anyone with a normal level of awareness.

We're talking about a recently minted intro diver (Doby45). He's probably just beginning to develop his cave awareness.

As to the PIII accident, if I remember that correctly the diver was a student who had been left by himself at the top of the jump to Hendley's castle. The instructor had gone deeper with another student and left the second student at the top. The diver attempted to exit on his own and jumped onto an alternate line and eventually ran out of gas.
PIII is a different beast due to visibility and general conditions of silt and particulate on the line so I can see a mistake like that happen. Also this specific jump has been pulled back since.

Umm, different story. The one Chad referred to was Bill Hurst, who got lost in P3. His death was one of the things that lead to the creation of the line arrow.

[nakatomi]

Cave instructor?? Really?? It's amazing how gossip and rumor blow out of proportion.

"Did you hear about the surfer dude that pulled a gun on Mister Hand?"

Well generall speaking (not criticizing you or anyone else personally) it wouldn't be such an issue if information was shared instead of forgotten and swept under the closest rug.

We're talking about a recently minted intro diver (Doby45). He's probably just beginning to develop his cave awareness.

Yes, that is to be commended. Awareness is absolutely vital.

Umm, different story. The one Chad referred to was Bill Hurst, who got lost in P3. His death was one of the things that lead to the creation of the line arrow.

That is a very interesting piece of history. Line arrows are a huge improvement from the old Dorff markers (or even no markers).

[Scubaru]

Original thread of the accident I was referring to.

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...ty-at-Peacock?

Well generally speaking (not criticizing you or anyone else personally) it wouldn't be such an issue if information was shared instead of forgotten and swept under the closest rug.

TRUTH.

[nakatomi]

Original thread of the accident I was referring to.

http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showt...ty-at-Peacock?

That accident was on the P1 side and not the Orange Grove end. The way I remember it the team did a circuit via the crossover line. While everything went according to schedule, the deceased supposedly got confused at some point as to which way is out and there was team separation and a fatality. Very sad.

[Scubaru]

Gotcha. After I started reading through it again, it wasn't old enough to be the one I thought it was anyway. There was already gold line in the cave at this point.

[Brent]

The color of the line is certainly a huge safety factor for todays divers but as Ken Sallot pointed out, cave awareness is also a big part of the equation. Not much conversation about Dorf markers so far but the fatality at the Distance Tunnel ( the female ) "might" have been prevented if she had paid attention to the direction of the markers. She swam "against the grain" until???
Same situation in Mexico a few years back at the Boz Chen jump, where the team swam all the way down to the Paso de Lagato jump and the line ended and they turned and tried to make it back to Calimba, but came up short. There is probably a minimum of 20 or so Dorfs on that line, yet the team ignored every one of them. These guys were all full cave trained. How does this happen? One obvious answer is "stress and anxiety". Easy to say but not always easy to deal with in the heat of the battle. We all make bad decisions from time to time but most are recoverable. The wrong direction in a cave usually has a bad ending!

[FW]

The sad fact of life is, when someone gets stressed, none of the usual cues can persuade them that they are going the wrong way. Even since goldline became the norm in the US, divers have strayed into side leads. Arrows are also ignored when a diver gets stressed. It is true you have to make a turn to follow the goldline exiting Orange Grove from Challenge, but if you aren't perceiving the clues, like a big jump, and line color changing, it is still possible to go into the distance tunnel. There was a fatality due to a stressed diver going the wrong way on the Peanut line after making a jump from the crossover tunnel. Neither the arrows, nor her buddy convinced her which way was out.

[rddvet]

That Darwin works in mysterious ways.

Praise be to Darwin.

[Kelly Jessop]

As to the PIII accident, if I remember that correctly the diver was a student who had been left by himself at the top of the jump to Hendley's castle. The instructor had gone deeper with another student and left the second student at the top. The diver attempted to exit on his own and jumped onto an alternate line and eventually ran out of gas.
PIII is a different beast due to visibility and general conditions of silt and particulate on the line so I can see a mistake like that happen. Also this specific jump has been pulled back since.

The victim got separated from the group by traversing down "old main line". That jump was only a few feet from the main line tied to a very large rock, and with the low viz, it was very easy to accidentally get on that line. The pity was the person was cavern certified and made a mistake that many full cave divers had made,but lacked the training to understand his mistake and get out. The solution to the problem was to cut that line way back so it couldn't be accidentally be jumped onto to. I also understand the accident referenced by the OP at the Distance tunnel, the line was closer to the main line in the Well area. I remember a handful of caves that had jumps that were as little as 6" away from the main line.