Training in Mexico

[phillip1]

I am not Patrick
So when you do full cave training in Florida you do not get mask pulled off and no reg pulled out of mouth simulating accidental pullout and by ooa buddy during out of gas drills?

I got very realistic and excellent trading in México it was very demanding, fun, sometimes discouraging but really excellent and super professional.

While on the subject I got my reg ripped out of my mouth twice for real by getting it hooked on Velcro rock once even had whole mouthpiece come off too while exploring Catetpilar was a non issue thanks to having done it many times in training.

[oya]

Wow.

Just... wow.

[bamafan]

I am not Patrick
So when you do full cave training in Florida you do not get mask pulled off and no reg pulled out of mouth simulating accidental pullout and by ooa buddy during out of gas drills?

I got very realistic and excellent trading in México it was very demanding, fun, sometimes discouraging but really excellent and super professional.

While on the subject I got my reg ripped out of my mouth twice for real by getting it hooked on Velcro rock once even had whole mouthpiece come off too while exploring Catetpilar was a non issue thanks to having done it many times in training.

I am sorry I meant Phillip, I have met Patrick but not you. Your videos rock by the way. I don't know of anyone who does training like that in Florida except for the combat diving school at the Navy base in Panama City Beach. There have been charges filed against some instructors for way less than this. I personally don't have a problem with most of it. I don't feel that swapping or removing markers are a good idea but if it is properly controlled I can see it being okay. It does sound like a lot of fun to me but in Florida it wouldn't fly.

[cerich]

100% knowing way out by memory or don't do dive

I could not disagree more with this statement, sorry. It's applies Prog pen that fails on wrecks to cave where it will also fail.

in zero viz an experienced diver with 1000 dives in that place can still get dead from getting navigational disoriented.

[bamafan]

Phillip, a prime example of how sanitized things are over here there is a belief by the CDS that there shouldn't be any gold line T's. They just went and removed a killer T that was almost 300' deep and over 2000' back in Eagle's Nest because some unexperienced diver might get confused. The type of training you are talking about probably gives most of them a heart attack.

[phillip1]

If you are relying on your markers to tell you which way is out you are playing with Fire.
It's all fine untill the day one falls off, someone takes it off by mistake (as in Mayan Blue accident) line breaks and marker falls off etc..
the line markers should be to reinforce what you already know, not the only way you know the way
Do the dive progressively, break complex dives down into 3-4 dives until you know the way by memory.
Obviously dropping markers but dropping a marker were you know which way is out is vastly different than relying purely on markers because you do not know the way out.

This has absolutely nothing to do with wreck diving progressive penetration that was done with no line.

[phillip1]

I cannot beleive this stuff is not taught in Florida full cave training, how can people be certified full cave if there is even the slightest most remote chance that loosing a mask or a reg getting pulled out of the mouth could be a problem?
You serious they really do not teach this in Florida?
What about loosing a fin? please tell me at least do that

[bamafan]

Phillip, I can tell you it isn't done that way in Florida. I can see your arguments and can see some validity in what you are saying as I have lost a fin, had a reg pulled out of my mouth and even had my line cut on the wrong side of a nasty restriction. I am just someone who enjoys cave diving and I am not even an ow instructor. I would hope that Jim Wyatt or one of the other TD's will come on here and explain their thought behind the way things are done here in the US. I think it is a good conversation to have as I can see both sides .

[JohnnyC]

I'm with Phillip on this one, and I got trained in Mexico. When the shtf, you revert to your minimum level of training. If that doesn't include a full range of possible failures, when they happen, you're unprepared. It's true for rope access, for skydiving, first aid, and sure as hell for cave diving.

I don't disagree that if a student can't accomplish these, they should not be cave diving. I will add, if an instructor cannot safely conduct this type of instruction, they shouldn't be instructing either. Last time I checked, every cave dive has the potential to kill you. Why you would not stack every odd in your favor, I don't understand. Caves are austere environments, you should train as such, and you should instruct as such.

How many people would suggest slapping on a rebreather without instruction? How about rebreather instruction without drilling failure modes religiously? Why would we accept the same level of complacent avoidance of failure modes in cave training?

[gearhound]

I think there should be some distinction between what's taught in a normal cave course and what taught in an "advanced workshop". I think what some of you are describing is what's conducted in some advanced sidemount workshops in Mexico.

As with all training, I think it's the instructor that makes the difference. I received my cave training in Florida, but send my friends down to Mexico for training. I've met and dove with instructors that I've found to be much more thorough with the training than I personally received in Florida. Does that mean that all the instructors in Mexico are better than all the instructors in Florida??? Certainly not! But there are definitely ones I trust more...ones that require mastery of the skills before giving them a certification card.

We took a group of 6 divers down for training in Florida when I first started. Two divers had problems with buoyancy, trim and team awareness. Lights out drills consisted of shutting your eyes and pretending that your lights are out. 3 person OOA drill had the third person somehow wind up between the OOA divers, and him saying he never let go of the line. How did he get caught between the two other divers then? Yet these 2 with all of the problems got signed off and certified. When that happened, it sure made me question the validity of my training.

Higher standards are not a bad thing. Cave diving is not for everyone!

BTW, I've participated in some of the drills mentioned, in my advanced sidemount course, but everything was practiced and mastered in open water. The effects of these drills was to make me a more cautious and diligent diver. I am proud and thankful for the training that I received. I highly recommend them!