Training in Mexico

[Aotus]

I've seen a lot of videos of these sort of drills, often in OW with a blindfold. I'm not convinced that all or even most of these examples are crazed death-defying feats. A lot of these sound like ways to experiment and familiarize a student with gear and situations. I didn't experience these tests but since seeing them on the internet I've thought about trying them out in OW or a pool. Context is essential. OW with a blindfold? Sure. Big open cavern with an attentive instructor? I'm not sure why not. In a smaller passage with silt and/or in a silt out? no.

[Aotus]

I have heard they do things such as regulator swapping in sidemount where you are supposed to breathe off the valve while swapping regs.

I just saw a video of this last week, but for the life of me can't find it now...I guess that means I watch too many cave diving videos. I believe it was the same video where a person was breathing off a LP hose while feathering the valve. In the video this was done in OW, and I see no problem with trying this, I'm going to, one of these days. That doesn't mean I consider it a realistic survival skill, but if that's my only option, sure as hell I'm going to try it!

Purging the students reg while he is breathing it with a blacked out mask

My reports are from Europe and Mexico. I've not heard of anyone pulling stuff like this in Florida yet.

I've seen this in a lot of videos, in OW and in caves. In my training I just received a signal to pretend it was free-flowing and start feathering. I don't see the big problem with the drill you describe though, the instructor can just stop pressing if there are undue signs of distress.

I'd be more concerned about practices that cannot be stopped immediately by an instructor. Intentional silt-outs come to mind, or hiding from a student for a lost-buddy drill without being able to see them. I've heard accounts of both of these in FL, by instructors and mentors.

Of course, I am not, nor ever expect to become, a cave instructor. So, my opinion doesn't really matter on this.

[rongoodman]

The only one of these I ever encountered at Protec was being asked to practice sipping air off of a bare valve. It was just something I played with in the pool, though, never in a cave.

[phillip1]

Phillip that is definitely a different way of teaching cave diving than what is done in the US. The agencies here would string up the instructors for stuff like this.

Stuff like what? Not trusting your life 100% to a line marker and 100% knowing way out by memory or don't do dive or ripping reg out of mouth to simulate ooa buddy?

[phillip1]

I have certainly heard about this type of training and excessive confidence building exercises.
As a matter of fact it is so prevalent with some instructors in Europe that I inquired with the CDS and NACD before I started cave training in 2011.
The NACD training director didn't even bother to get back to me, the CDS training director basically said that valve manipulations in the overhead are prohibited but other confidence building drills are at the discretion of the instructor.

My advice is to always talk to the instructor about this prior to training and get his stance in writing.
To me safety is always top priority but it is obvious that for some instructors it certainly is not.
Here is what has been reported to me in type of drills in cave class:

Shutting down the students valves (in the cave)

Removing the students mask from behind

Tearing the long hose from the student while he is breathing it in an OOA lights out scenario

Shutting down students valves in blind mask drills

Fin removal, deliberate entanglement by the instructor

Purging the students reg while he is breathing it with a blacked out mask

Shutting down both valves of students at the same time

Placing obstacles like big rocks on top of a student to simulate getting stuck

Manipulation of system line arrows and students cookies to confuse the student on exit

Most of this is no secret and some is documented on YouTube.

I can see these drills going wrong and do not approve of any of this.
GUE needs to get a big recommendation for not allowing any of this!!

My reports are from Europe and Mexico. I've not heard of anyone pulling stuff like this in Florida yet.

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And what is wrong with any of that? If a student cannot handle those events on a controlled training dive then he or she should not be cave diving at all.

[phillip1]

You think TDI would suspend an instructor?

When has an agency ever suspended an instructor for killing an open water client by taking them into the full cave area when on a supposed guided cavern dive? Let alone taking a reg out of a students mouth, LOL

[phillip1]

Honestly if someone cannot handle getting mask tore off, getting reg tore off, getting a valve shutdown, markers switched around or removed during a training dive scenario etc... he or she should not get certified in cave diving period.
I got really excellent dive training in Mexico and it made me super solid and able to handle all types of emergencies, cave training is not dive training its survival training and the lighter more watered down your training is the lighter more watered down you will be when it happens for real.

Not knowing the way out and trusting a line marker 100% was the cause of the triple fatality at Mayan Blue years ago.

[JohnAd]

Honestly if someone cannot handle getting mask tore off, getting reg tore off, getting a valve shutdown, markers switched around or removed during a training dive scenario etc... he or she should not get certified in cave diving period.

And any student who dies during a training drill should definitely not be certified.

[phillip1]

And any student who dies during a training drill should definitely not be certified.

It's during a controlled training drill I did it many times over and the instructors made each drill seem as realistic as possible, there was always the possibility of aborting any drill at any moment should I have felt uuncomfortable etc..it was great, taught me how to deal with emergencies.

I may be wrong but I have not heard of any students that ever died during such a drill in Mexico.
I have however heard of many many certified cave divers who died because of poor skills and poor training though.

[bamafan]

Patrick, what you describe sounds like a lot of fun and definitely challenging. I can tell you that the agencies here get their panties in a wad over stuff way less demanding than what you are describing.