Marking another team's jump?

[A.Diver]

Hi all

I'm a non-US cave diver who's recently completed our local equivalent of full cave. I've done about 200 cave dives at previous levels, so I'm not exactly zero to hero, it just took me a while to progress! (Over here, we can stay at previous levels for as long as we like.)

I have some questions that I'd like your input on. NOTE: I AM NOT asking what to do in these cases! I have, and will continue to, discuss these cases with local instructors and buddies, and decide for myself. I'm just interested in what your local protocols are over there.

Here's the first scenario.

On my first post-course FC dive, I and a more-experienced buddy did a simple "out and back" dive, along the main line of a well-marked FC system. Our plan included some T's, but no jumps. Our local protocol is generally for each diver to mark each navigational decision point (eg. T or jump) with a personal marker. We didn't expect to see anyone else in this part of the system. So it was the opposite of having dozens of teams all over the place.

We're motoring along the line, on our way into the system, when we come to what is clearly another team's jump. They must have snuck in before us

I started to drop a personal marker, but my buddy signalled not to. We discussed this afterwards. I'd assumed that this would be a navigational decision point, for us, if we had to return in zero viz. But my buddy argued that we'd know it wasn't our jump (because we hadn't placed any!), and dropping markers might confuse the other team, and cause them to think that someone else had used their jump (crazy as that would be to do). So we didn't drop any markers.

I felt comfortable with that, since we hadn't placed any jumps ourselves, so there was no potential for confusion. But I'm not sure how I would have felt if we'd placed some jumps ourselves - especially if those were close by.

So my question is, what's your local protocol in that situation? Do you folk ever drop personal markers when proceeding *past* (not *down*!) another team's jump? Would your decision depend on whether *you* had installed any jumps? Would it depend on how busy that area of the system was? Or are you all thinking, "Who in their right mind would mark another team's jump?!"

Again, I'm NOT asking what to do. I'm just interested in hearing other peoples' reasoning and protocols.

Cheers,
TC

[Bobby]

I'm sure you will get various answers depending on view point. Since you were on your way out and knew your direction I would not have dropped any marker. If it were on the way in it would have depended on if the team that made the jump had used their own marker for the jump. If they had then I would not need to leave my own and would have left it as is. If they had not and had just tied into the main line without a marker than this likely would create a "T" if the lines were of similar construction and thickness, then I would have dropped a marker. If one were heavy gold line (or equivalent) and the other line smaller standard braided line I likely would not have dropped a marker as long as I was absolutely certain of how to handle it upon exiting. If traffic in the system was a concern I would turn the dive if I felt it could confuse another team and I had any doubt about proceeding without a marker being dropped.

[A.Diver]

Thanks Bobby, that's a really excellent answer, exactly the kind I was hoping for.

Unfortunately I've confused the issue by saying that we were on the way "out". In fact we were on the way "in", I got my terms mixed up! I've edited my post accordingly, and taken the liberty of rephrasing your answer by deleting the following words (I can't see how to do a strikeout): Since you were on your way out and knew your direction I would not have dropped any marker. If it were on the way in...

I'm sure you will get various answers depending on view point. It would have depended on if the team that made the jump had used their own marker for the jump. If they had then I would not need to leave my own and would have left it as is. If they had not and had just tied into the main line without a marker than this likely would create a "T" if the lines were of similar construction and thickness, then I would have dropped a marker. If one were heavy gold line (or equivalent) and the other line smaller standard braided line I likely would not have dropped a marker as long as I was absolutely certain of how to handle it upon exiting. If traffic in the system was a concern I would turn the dive if I felt it could confuse another team and I had any doubt about proceeding without a marker being dropped.

Cheers,
TC

[tbone1004]

If it is a marked jump, in the US we often have double arrows marking jumps, then I would not touch it.
If not, but the team followed proper protocol and marked their jump with either an arrow, or a cookie, then I would have left it.
If it is regular white line tied onto our thick gold line, I would not touch it.

I would only mark it if the jump was similar line onto similar line, and was not marked properly by the other team. Should be a very rare occurence

[bamafan]

This is a little off topic but something to think about. I have a buddy who is a pretty good photographer. We were diving in Mexico and another buddy had dumped an 800' reel in some virgin cave and he and my photographer buddy were going back the next day with fresh reels. Two of us followed them in and started checking out leads off the new line. I had 5 or 6 dead ends then finally hit the mother load. Just off the line it went through a fairly small restriction. I had t'd in and marked it with a line arrow. My other buddy had apparently done the same thing a few hundred feet back towards the entrance from me. So as my photographer buddy and the other diver were coming out the photographer swam up my line and got wedged in the restriction. The other buddy noticed he was missing and went and got him. He then did the same thing at the next new T. It really bothered him after the dive but with someone taking pictures you really have to watch out for them.

[FW]

This is a little off topic but something to think about. I have a buddy who is a pretty good photographer. We were diving in Mexico and another buddy had dumped an 800' reel in some virgin cave and he and my photographer buddy were going back the next day with fresh reels. Two of us followed them in and started checking out leads off the new line. I had 5 or 6 dead ends then finally hit the mother load. Just off the line it went through a fairly small restriction. I had t'd in and marked it with a line arrow. My other buddy had apparently done the same thing a few hundred feet back towards the entrance from me. So as my photographer buddy and the other diver were coming out the photographer swam up my line and got wedged in the restriction. The other buddy noticed he was missing and went and got him. He then did the same thing at the next new T. It really bothered him after the dive but with someone taking pictures you really have to watch out for them.

Wes Skiles used to hire Brian Kakuk to "baby sit" him, so he didn't do something dumb like that.

[bamafan]

Wes Skiles used to hire Brian Kakuk to "baby sit" him, so he didn't do something dumb like that.

I can really see it being needed. With the digital cameras I see people swimming along looking at the display not to mention them focusing on taking pictures. I really watch out after that incident. Assuming people see a T can cause issues too.

Oh by the way my little lead has been extended for another 3000' and is getting bigger with flow in it. It is headed off in a direction of no known caves within several miles of it. I can't wait to go back.

[Nitrogenius]

I would clearly mark it.
The proper way to mark it is with a Cookie anyways, which is non directional, so how is it supposed to confuse the other team??
The should have tied off the jump from an arrow or a REM type marker (the latter if it was in an area were the predominant arrow direction is not their exit direction), so in any case direction should be clear to them since they placed the jump and they would have to expect other divers to place markers when they would come across their T (even when no traffic generally was expected).


Why would you jeopardize your own safety over potentially confuse someone else? I don't get that..
If for reasons I can not see at this point there was a doubt confusing them, then I agree with Bobby.. Turning would be my choice rather than proceed with no marker..


No marker would really only be an option in that thick gold line - thin Jump line Case and all the Ts in the system being of the same thick line...


And to me this case clearly goes beyond "local protocol", "just" not marking another teams jump and passing it is no option in any training agency I am aware of.
Not marking it because of crystal clear difference in line and otherwise line being consistent over the whole dive can be local protocol adjustment, but again even that I would use with very caution.
Not marking it because of not doing Jumps along the dive is a violation of rules in my opinion and simply not safe practice..

[rddvet]

If in doubt, cookie it out. In France the lines can be 18 different types of line making up the main lines. What looks like a jump may actually be a t or whatnot.

There is a section in Ressel that is know for tripping people up. There is a t that goes left and right and meets back at a t before the first deep drop. I've been told by locals there are line wars between different French speleo groups an they're constantly changing lines. Often what was one color line months earlier is different now. And they love to pull people's markers out. When we were there a few years ago we went left at the t and came across what we thought was a jump because it was a different colored line coming off the mainline hidden behind a rock. We didn't cookie it. On the way out we realized we weren't leaving via the same tunnel. We got very stressed and nervous but knew from the map we'd be going back to the first t but its a slightly different distance and depth. Options were to turn back and retrace the original steps or trust our memories of the map. We chose to stay the course and all was well.
We went back two days later to see what we did wrong. On inspection both tunnels were lined with the same line but somebody chose to make the line that creates the t from one line to the other with a different color and type of line. By American standards it definitely looked like a jump from our original direction. Once you checked it out further you could see what they did.

So in your case not knowing the caves you dive, I would say mark it. Your marker should not confuse the other team if they know what they're doing and will save your butt potentially.

I still have the note my fiancé wrote to me in shaky scared handwriting that says "r we going the right way". It sits over our fill station to remember not to let something similar happen. It's the only time I've ever thought I may kill myself in a cave and the only time I've see her really freaked the hell out under water.

[A.Diver]

... So as my photographer buddy and the other diver were coming out the photographer swam up my line and got wedged in the restriction. The other buddy noticed he was missing and went and got him. He then did the same thing at the next new T.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that at each T, he misread the arrow, and turned the wrong way?

TC