Dynamic Compaction in Florida

[Cindy]

I think Cindy has made the point, too, that her original effort was simply to insert some awareness of the existence and impact of the cave system into the Walmart discussions, not to stop or delay construction. And Cindy, it's not my intent to speak for you, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Brian

You summed it up well Brian, You can talk for me anytime!
We did have a local cavediver who knew the land owner try to negotiate a deal to make the sink area into a park. We found out that the land was tied up in a contract already. We were about two years too late. This is so typical of some people to damn us without knowing what has been tried or said, they speak out without having a clue about what is going on. Some people do that because they just don't know and actually want to know the anwsers, they just don't know how to ask. Some people just do that because to cause others pain and problems makes them feel better about themselves. BMW is right on the point that some people are best just ignored. Thanks for caring enough to post on this subject. You will be glad to know I just received an email from the City of High Springs addressed to the SRWM. The word is finally out and I can retire to days off diving soon. Cindy

[Genesis]

Here's the problem guys and gals...

IF you're being honest - and this is not about WalMart, but ANY business that wanted to go there - you're trying to destroy the value of a piece of property, effectively stealing it from the landowner, while leaving him with an unmarketable piece of land and the property tax liability that comes with it.

IF you're being DISHONEST, and this is about WalMart, then you're interested in trashing both a deal that has been signed (that is, trashing the owner's rights) AND trashing a business you disagree with, but can't find a legitimate way to keep out of town.

In either case its a problem.

Why don't I raise the money and do this? Because I don't think it needs to be done. I believe that reasonable mitigation measures, most significantly dealing with runoff, are enough.

I further believe that if you succeed you will ultimately screw Alachua, because if you manage to cause a "taking" by destroying the value of the current owner's land you will have created a cause of action for him against the county, that he will sue for that diminished value (basically the entire value of his deal to sell the land!) and the county will ultimately be forced to pay.

WHEN that happens - not if - the county is going to be very upset with cave divers. Why? Because we will have our "name" all over it, and we will be identified as the group that cost the county several million dollars by stopping a project they wanted. We will also be identified as the reason that the employment didn't come to Alachua, the sales tax money didn't show up, the related businesses are not there, etc.

Cooperation from the county after an event like that? You're kidding, right? You want to make mortal enemies? This sort of forced expense is a great way to do it - especially for a county that doesn't have a whole lot of extra funds sitting around to start with.

This is all about private property rights guys and gals. You folks think they're entirely unimportant - that you can just take them whenever you'd like. It does not work that way in the real world. You're living in a fantasy land if you think that the landowner is not entitled to seek compensation for the diminished value as a result of a government action that effectively renders the zoning he had void - and which formed the basis of value when he acquired and has maintained the land, along with the property taxes he has paid on that land, zoned as it is, to date.

He is. This is not just "case law", or "I wish" law, this is The United States Constitution we're talking about, and there is no question that he is absolutely entitled to that compensation.

Who's going to pay for it? Those of you who are raising hell now - how many of you live in Alachua's taxing authority, and thus will end up paying your share of this when, not if, the check comes due? ANY?

I bet not.

[Rich]

Here's the problem guys and gals...

IF you're being honest - and this is not about WalMart, but ANY business that wanted to go there - you're trying to destroy the value of a piece of property, effectively stealing it from the landowner, while leaving him with an unmarketable piece of land and the property tax liability that comes with it.

IF you're being DISHONEST, and this is about WalMart, then you're interested in trashing both a deal that has been signed (that is, trashing the owner's rights) AND trashing a business you disagree with, but can't find a legitimate way to keep out of town.

In either case its a problem.

Why don't I raise the money and do this? Because I don't think it needs to be done. I believe that reasonable mitigation measures, most significantly dealing with runoff, are enough.

I further believe that if you succeed you will ultimately screw Alachua, because if you manage to cause a "taking" by destroying the value of the current owner's land you will have created a cause of action for him against the county, that he will sue for that diminished value (basically the entire value of his deal to sell the land!) and the county will ultimately be forced to pay.

WHEN that happens - not if - the county is going to be very upset with cave divers. Why? Because we will have our "name" all over it, and we will be identified as the group that cost the county several million dollars by stopping a project they wanted. We will also be identified as the reason that the employment didn't come to Alachua, the sales tax money didn't show up, the related businesses are not there, etc.

Cooperation from the county after an event like that? You're kidding, right? You want to make mortal enemies? This sort of forced expense is a great way to do it - especially for a county that doesn't have a whole lot of extra funds sitting around to start with.

This is all about private property rights guys and gals. You folks think they're entirely unimportant - that you can just take them whenever you'd like. It does not work that way in the real world. You're living in a fantasy land if you think that the landowner is not entitled to seek compensation for the diminished value as a result of a government action that effectively renders the zoning he had void - and which formed the basis of value when he acquired and has maintained the land, along with the property taxes he has paid on that land, zoned as it is, to date.

He is. This is not just "case law", or "I wish" law, this is The United States Constitution we're talking about, and there is no question that he is absolutely entitled to that compensation.

Who's going to pay for it? Those of you who are raising hell now - how many of you live in Alachua's taxing authority, and thus will end up paying your share of this when, not if, the check comes due? ANY?

I bet not.

Actually, I live within the Alachua city limits and pay Alachua taxes.

I also should point out that if we're talking about honesty here, it is dishonest for you to represent yourself as a cave diver, because you have no formal certification reflecting that.

Now if you choose to represent yourself as an Intro to Cave diver who decides to exceed his training without regard for the consequences to himself or others that would be honest.....

Safe diving,

Rich

[Genesis]

More personal attacks... why am I not surprised? Don't expect me to respond to them - I won't.

Again: Why didn't you folks get together and buy this land before the Walmart was proposed? You knew the land was zoned commercial and it was over the cave, right? This is not a surprise!

Suddenly, out of nowhere, there's all this concern - where there was none before. Nobody wants to deal with that, nor do you want to deal with what you're actually doing here - trying to, in effect, steal a few million from a private landowner.

The problem of course is that you can't do that. Government actions that diminish or destroy the value of private property for a public purpose are allowed under the Constitution, but they create an absolute liability in the amount of the damage done for that government entity.

If you succeed the county will be forced to pay up, and you better believe that I, and many others, will be absolutely certain to "pin the tail on the donkey" when it comes to who is responsible for the economic damage to the county government when - not if - it happens.

[Rich]

More personal attacks... why am I not surprised? Don't expect me to respond to them - I won't.

I'm also not going to get into it, but why would you think that was a personal attack? I made no judgements, but was just restating facts that you yourself have stated on numerous occasions.

Heck, I'm just providing food for thought to the people who are reading this and aren't aware of all the factors involved....

Safe diving,

Rich

[Genesis]

Cards do not a person make.

What you do makes you who you are.

If you dive in caves, you are a cave diver. Only those who would devolve down what someone is to how much money they've spent would argue otherwise.

That sort of elitism makes me ill...... and that same ill-will attaches to those organizations that they are affiliated with.

Something to think about Rich.....

[Rich]

Cards do not a person make.

What you do makes you who you are.

If you dive in caves, you are a cave diver. Only those who would devolve down what someone is to how much money they've spent would argue otherwise.

That sort of elitism makes me ill...... and that same ill-will attaches to those organizations that they are affiliated with.

Something to think about Rich.....

I had a great time scootering, diving and chatting with you at JB, Karl.

Unfortunately I can no longer do that (at least the diving part!), since I've signed an ethical agreement stating I would not dive with people beyond their level of training......

As you know well, I have no personal issues with you whatsoever, this is a free country and you can do what you like. I'm just here voicing my opinion, as are you

Something to think about also.....

Safe diving,

Rich

[imported_admin]

Hmmm... this topic looks like its gone south... or about to... maybe we should lock it up? Finger on the lock key..

[JDostal]

Oh no... don't lock it at all!!! I'm having fun seeing how far it will go!

[Dan Thoms]

I am in support of Cindy, Jim, Drew, Buford, and many people who have worked in the background with the intent of preserving a cave system, something that is slowly becoming endangered as time progresses. I compliment these people who stand in the public spotlight and meet frustration over what they see as being right, not for personal profit.

Me too, and i have been a DUI member since 04 ("LOL")