Dynamic Compaction in Florida

[Cave Ranger]

Then may I stand corrected. Perhaps we are talking about two different types of monitoring wells but since I'm not an installer of these wells I shall defer to your professional knowledge. It just didn't seem to make any sense that this could happen. Huh....Wells with no check valves.....Whoda thunk it? I'm just so danged uppity sometimes

Many of you are very passionate about this issue and I was only wondering if there would be this same uproar if a Super Target, Sears, or Publix were being proposed for this site.
In all likelihood this store is going to be constructed regardless of all of your best efforts. Down here in South Florida we have an active environmental minority that litigates against every proposed development, road, bridge,etc. regardless of it benefitting a majority of the local community. We call them C.A.V.E. people. Citizens Against Virtually Everything. They have yet to halt a single project but they do manage to slow it down so that by the time they actually break ground the cost of the bridge, road etc is millions and millions more than the original proposed cost. Mostly tax dollars too.
I only hope that however this all turns out that it benefits the most people for the better with as little impact to the local environment as possible.

I shall now abscond back to my lair and never darken this forum on this subject ever again.

[Cindy]

First, as I have stated several times. I am not anti WalMart. I am anti someone damaging the cave. I didn't move the cave under a WalMart so I could have an excuse to go to War with WalMart! Think what you will but no matter who developed out there or does develop out there I want them to be aware of the cave and take due precautions. I'm not sure how many ways and many times I have to say that. When I first started this my intention was only to inform the City of Alachua and Wal Mart about the cave and to please take it into consideration during building and why I felt it needed to be done. Both parties ignored me. I had to get help from experts and the community for them to pay attention to the problem. I may not have done that the way that you felt it should be done but it's the only way I knew how to get the point accross. Please don't think anyone is trying to run you off. I just didn't quite understand what you were trying to say. Input, even negative is helpful if it's done with two things. First actual knowledge of a subject, second the realization that you are talking to a fellow cave diver and frankly someone who can save your life in a cave some day. We are a very small community. If we treat each other with due respect while posting we can get our point accross without hurting each other so much. Cindy Butler

[Ken Hill]

Cindy and all,
One of the reasons the NSS-CDS is unique is that it owns dive sites and caves to be used by the members for recreational, educational and scientific purposes. These sites were paid for and maintained with member donations and dues.

In the case of Mill Creek, it came to my attention that Wal-Mart was commencing the building of a Super Center and a transfer point for its merchandise within the area of the cave, if not above it. More alarming was that one of the contractors for Wal-Mart construction called Terrasystems, is a company that specializes in Dynamic Compaction for the purpose of compacting the soil around and under the footprint of the building site. Please see (http://www.terrasystems-inc.com/terr...correction.pdf).

Now this same outfit prepared the site in Knoxville that allowed Wal-Mart to build over sinkholes by demolishing the sinks. See ( http://www.terrasystems-inc.com/dcexp.htm ). Without any investigation or intervention that could be the same outcome that would incur damage to Mill Creek Sink, an NSS-CDS asset.
I applaud Cindy and the members of the CDS BoD who got the fire lit under the NSS to do something to secure the rights of their property from damage.

The thumbnail sketch of activity so far was to acknowledge that seeing the potential for damage is one thing, proof of this potential is another. Volunteers like Pete Butt did a dye trace leading the waters of the sink to Hornesby. This allowed leverage and/or permit challenges with the state DEP and SRMD. Drew Glasbrenner and other PGs studied the site and the karst and prepared the documentation Buford Pruitt carried to SRMD. There are numerous others who have pitched in.

In another forum, (some whom I see have posted here) nit-picked the living daylights out of those actively involved in preserving one of our dive sites. To those people I cannot overemphasize "do not waste our time." None of us that care about the cave have the spare time to have our wheels spun reading self serving unimportant minutia.

Its not about Wal-Mart! Its about saving Mill Creek from potential harm. What we need is more eyes more ears and more expertise because we cannot be everywhere at once. This responsibility falls to all cave divers not just the few that have carried the day so far. Either lead follow or get the hell out of the way.

I will post when I'm pissed.
/K

[bmwcaves]

Cindy, Ken, Kelly,

You know you guys are wasting your time replying to these
"Cyber-divers". Why bother any more.

These people are not helping to save caves, they never will
There are users of the resource but have no respect for it.
It's a waste of time to try and convince them otherwise.

I think the caving community has enough intelligence to ignore the constant yelping of a few individuals who just want to be validated by a response from real cavers.
Your efforts were valiant..... but you can't change a leopards spots.

Brian

[Tegg]

Cindy, Ken, Kelly,

You know you guys are wasting your time replying to these
"Cyber-divers". Why bother any more.

These people are not helping to save caves, they never will
There are users of the resource but have no respect for it.
It's a waste of time to try and convince them otherwise.

I think the caving community has enough intelligence to ignore the constant yelping of a few individuals who just want to be validated by a response from real cavers.
Your efforts were valiant..... but you can't change a leopards spots.

Brian

Thanks Brian for saying what alot of us were thinking.

[Genesis]

Again - potential for damage is one thing, actual damage is another.

When you are unwilling to actually acquire subject property to end threats you immediately paint yourselves as someone who wants to destroy the rights of others - but foist off the costs on yet STILL others.

Appropriate standards intended to prevent damage to the cave is not only ok with everyone I know (including myself), but is something I personally want to see, and have so expressed in my letter.

BUT - if your idea of "preventing damage" is to effectively rezone the property without rezoning it, you will not find acceptance here. That sort of attempt is odious.

The Nature Conservancy solves these sorts of problems all the time - by BUYING THE LAND. What I've seen so far is an attempt to delay, delay, delay and obfuscate in an attempt to make Walmart "give up" and go elsewhere, while not being willing to compensate the landowner.

Again - why not press Alachua to BUY the parcel from the current owner and turn it into a park? You get what you want, its a clean deal, there is no FUTURE risk, and nobody gets hurt.

So WHY - to those of you "leading the charge" - have you not proposed THAT?

Isn't this really about trying to foist off the COSTS of your "conservancy" on a person who owns this land in good faith, with a zoning you don't like, but were unwilling to raise hell about and get bought UNTIL a company you don't like showed up?

I think so.

[brianstclair]

So WHY - to those of you "leading the charge" - have you not proposed THAT?

Why haven't YOU? These aren't people working for some kind of PETA organization who are simply running around trying to stir up trouble and cause problems for a big business that they don't support! They are just divers like you and me! They're doing the best they know how, in their free time, after working long days at their "real" jobs, and if you don't like the way they're going about it, then go about it differently yourself. And good luck getting Alachua to pay fair value for that land and turn it into a park, by the way. Let me know how that works out for ya.

Isn't this really about trying to foist off the COSTS of your "conservancy" on a person who owns this land in good faith, with a zoning you don't like, but were unwilling to raise hell about and get bought UNTIL a company you don't like showed up?

Are you suggesting that these people, who also have families and want to spend their free time diving like you and me should instead spend their time trying to get the government to "eminant domain" every piece of land with a sinkhole on it so that it never becomes a problem in the future?

I think Cindy has made the point, too, that her original effort was simply to insert some awareness of the existence and impact of the cave system into the Walmart discussions, not to stop or delay construction. And Cindy, it's not my intent to speak for you, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Geez, man, I've never met you, and hopefully we can have a non-internet conversation about our philosophies at some point, but even if you don't agree with their methods, strategies, or philosophies, at least give them the respect due to anyone who's sacrificing a lot of their personal time and investing a lot of themselves in a project that they believe in. No one's asking you to join anything or be a part of anything, and you're as free as any of us to go about this a different way if you want.

Brian

[Cindy]

Cindy, Ken, Kelly,

You know you guys are wasting your time replying to these
"Cyber-divers". Why bother any more.

These people are not helping to save caves, they never will
There are users of the resource but have no respect for it.
It's a waste of time to try and convince them otherwise.

I think the caving community has enough intelligence to ignore the constant yelping of a few individuals who just want to be validated by a response from real cavers.
Your efforts were valiant..... but you can't change a leopards spots.

Brian

Hey Brian, I agree we are not going to change the lepords spots. We are just trying to make sure that people know as much as possible about the real story instead of only being able to read the convoluted ego rantings. Cindy

[Kelly Jessop]

So WHY - to those of you "leading the charge" - have you not proposed THAT?

Why haven't YOU? These aren't people working for some kind of PETA organization who are simply running around trying to stir up trouble and cause problems for a big business that they don't support! They are just divers like you and me! They're doing the best they know how, in their free time, after working long days at their "real" jobs, and if you don't like the way they're going about it, then go about it differently yourself. And good luck getting Alachua to pay fair value for that land and turn it into a park, by the way. Let me know how that works out for ya.

Isn't this really about trying to foist off the COSTS of your "conservancy" on a person who owns this land in good faith, with a zoning you don't like, but were unwilling to raise hell about and get bought UNTIL a company you don't like showed up?

Are you suggesting that these people, who also have families and want to spend their free time diving like you and me should instead spend their time trying to get the government to "eminant domain" every piece of land with a sinkhole on it so that it never becomes a problem in the future?

I think Cindy has made the point, too, that her original effort was simply to insert some awareness of the existence and impact of the cave system into the Walmart discussions, not to stop or delay construction. And Cindy, it's not my intent to speak for you, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Geez, man, I've never met you, and hopefully we can have a non-internet conversation about our philosophies at some point, but even if you don't agree with their methods, strategies, or philosophies, at least give them the respect due to anyone who's sacrificing a lot of their personal time and investing a lot of themselves in a project that they believe in. No one's asking you to join anything or be a part of anything, and you're as free as any of us to go about this a different way if you want.

Brian

Thanks Brian

[Jason B.]

Nice post brianstclair!