New GUE Project in Mallorca?

[Grimm]

No one has to explain anything to you; they only have to explain it to the authority issuing the permit. And if it satisfies them, then good on them. And, no, then they have no obligation to share what got them through the door with you or me or anyone else. It is their initiative, their pitch, their narrative, that got them access; they have no obligation to share it with you so that you can get access. It is becoming more and more clear to me that the issues you have are with the local authorities, not with the divers. So, you should take it up with the authorities and leave the divers, GUE, the DIR "fanboys" and everyone else out of it.

I have stated unequivocally that I have seen the permit and that if you still want to document that it exists ask the QC Director to verify that it exists; BUT none of this will get you the actual document to use as leverage to piss the authorities off. And once again this is not a GUE project. GUE members post things on the GUE website all the time.

[gianaameri]

No one has to explain anything to you; they only have to explain it to the authority issuing the permit. And if it satisfies them, then good on them. And, no, then they have no obligation to share what got them through the door with you or me or anyone else. It is their initiative, their pitch, their narrative, that got them access; they have no obligation to share it with you so that you can get access. It is becoming more and more clear to me that the issues you have are with the local authorities, not with the divers. So, you should take it up with the authorities and leave the divers, GUE and everyone else out of it.

I have stated unequivocally that I have seen the permit and that if you still want to document that it exists ask the QC Director to verify that it exists; BUT none of this will get you the actual document to use as leverage to piss the authorities off. And once again this is not a GUE project. GUE members post things on the GUE website all the time.

Damn right I have no problem with the divers.

They are competent, at least the Gue instructors (not sure who else went in with them...).

The issue is the activity which they are carrying out which is just for their fun and pleasure, but is not lawful in EU protected ZEC caves.

And Yes there is the issue as to who and why is allowing this to happen when the Directora General wrote to my lawyer a letter addressed to me which she signed and issued on the Dirección... letterhead with an official Balearic Government protocol number stating no permits will be issued till they finish writing the criteria and protocol for access.

So, Bent was right to flag the issue and now we all have to live with the consequences of it because of Gue, whatever these will be.

Maybe, just maybe, they should have been smarter and at least not boast for publicity on Facebook "Project Mallorca."

And no, I will not bug the Directora about this since I do not believe Gue has a signed License from the Dirección...

I take her written word the Directora over that of any anonymous posters on the Internet.

[bent]

It is becoming more and more clear to me that the issues you have are with the local authorities, not with the divers. So, you should take it up with the authorities and leave the divers, GUE, the DIR "fanboys" and everyone else out of it.

I'm taking it up with no one. I asked a question after I saw the new 'GUE project'. Was I supposed to know that the GUE project on the GUE fb site is not a GUE project? All I got was snarky comments and trolling from the fanboys.

[Picea]

As a general comment on how the system works: the fact that government offices have rules to abide to does not mean that they should give permits to everyone in the line. There are usually requirements a project needs to fill and not every project does that. Part of my work (in an EU country, which is famous for it's love of abiding to EU rules) is securing permits for my clients, which allow them to execute projects related to water and soil. It's a well known fact that not even filling the requirements is always enough, if you have caused trouble during previous projects, have a history of breaking rules or for example have left your final reporting undone, it may considerably complicate things. The reputation does matter and is a way even for the authorities to asses the reliability. It has nothing to do with corruption. (Speaking of which, publicly accusing someone of breaking the laws and corruption is quite a grave accusation, if there are no facts to second that. I think slander can be a criminal act in quite a many countries.)

I am astonished of the dismissive attitudes of some towards documentation. I have no connections to the project in question, but usually documentation is an inevitable part of any scientific work. Videography is used more and more nowadays for scientific purposes. Long gone are the days when the only way to make science was to bring home a dead animal or a piece of rock. For example the National Board of Antiquities in this country strongly encourages videography of wrecks and is closely working with volunteer diving teams. Also for conservation purposes high quality images and videos are vital, in order to raise the public awareness and to change the attitudes. On this field, the team discussed here, has done excellent work in their previous projects and the positive impact JP Bresser's films have had for the public image of cave diving is indisputable.

However I hope everyone feels better soon, going diving is a great way to convalesce from the disappointments in life.

[bent]

As a general comment on how the system works: the fact that government offices have rules to abide to does not mean that they should give permits to everyone in the line. There are usually requirements a project needs to fill and not every project does that. Part of my work (in an EU country, which is famous for it's love of abiding to EU rules) is securing permits for my clients, which allow them to execute projects related to water and soil. It's a well known fact that not even filling the requirements is always enough, if you have caused trouble during previous projects, have a history of breaking rules or for example have left your final reporting undone, it may considerably complicate things. The reputation does matter and is a way even for the authorities to asses the reliability. It has nothing to do with corruption. (Speaking of which, publicly accusing someone of breaking the laws and corruption is quite a grave accusation, if there are no facts to second that. I think slander can be a criminal act in quite a many countries.)

I am astonished of the dismissive attitudes of some towards documentation. I have no connections to the project in question, but usually documentation is an inevitable part of any scientific work. Videography is used more and more nowadays for scientific purposes. Long gone are the days when the only way to make science was to bring home a dead animal or a piece of rock. For example the National Board of Antiquities in this country strongly encourages videography of wrecks and is closely working with volunteer diving teams. Also for conservation purposes high quality images and videos are vital, in order to raise the public awareness and to change the attitudes. On this field, the team discussed here, has done excellent work in their previous projects and the positive impact JP Bresser's films have had for the public image of cave diving is indisputable.

However I hope everyone feels better soon, going diving is a great way to convalesce from the disappointments in life.

Are you just one more fanboy chiming in that knows nothing about this situation? Why do you think were the caves closed in the first place? What scientific work are you talking about? I love that we have so many people commenting on this even though they know jack s##t about what's been going on the last 5 years. I'm glad that so many people are getting so much glee out of this.

[gianaameri]

As a general comment on how the system works: the fact that government offices have rules to abide to does not mean that they should give permits to everyone in the line. There are usually requirements a project needs to fill and not every project does that. Part of my work (in an EU country, which is famous for it's love of abiding to EU rules) is securing permits for my clients, which allow them to execute projects related to water and soil. It's a well known fact that not even filling the requirements is always enough, if you have caused trouble during previous projects, have a history of breaking rules or for example have left your final reporting undone, it may considerably complicate things. The reputation does matter and is a way even for the authorities to asses the reliability. It has nothing to do with corruption. (Speaking of which, publicly accusing someone of breaking the laws and corruption is quite a grave accusation, if there are no facts to second that. I think slander can be a criminal act in quite a many countries.)

I am astonished of the dismissive attitudes of some towards documentation. I have no connections to the project in question, but usually documentation is an inevitable part of any scientific work. Videography is used more and more nowadays for scientific purposes. Long gone are the days when the only way to make science was to bring home a dead animal or a piece of rock. For example the National Board of Antiquities in this country strongly encourages videography of wrecks and is closely working with volunteer diving teams. Also for conservation purposes high quality images and videos are vital, in order to raise the public awareness and to change the attitudes. On this field, the team discussed here, has done excellent work in their previous projects and the positive impact JP Bresser's films have had for the public image of cave diving is indisputable.

However I hope everyone feels better soon, going diving is a great way to convalesce from the disappointments in life.

Then you will understand that,

1. For a Public Authority to issue a License then there has to be a framework within which it can operate.
2. This framework generally is predicated on a law, which in this case is the March 2015 new legislation which states that only the Direccion... can issue a License to access the ZEC caves and "tourist exploitation" is expressly forbidden.
3. The said Law requires the Direccion... to establish criterias and protocol for access to the caves prior to issuing a License.
4. The Direccion... has explicitely stated in writing that they are working on the protocol and criteria and we have to wait (not just KECP, or Grupo Norde, or... but this applies also to GUE).
5. The License, if and when issued, has to state the lawful criterias on which it is predicated and being issued (or if rejected offer a reasoned response and lawful criteria for the rejection).

In your experience, how would you explain supposedly a License being issued under the above circumstances to GUE?

Personally, I think it is fake on the assumption that it exist on Direccion... Letterhead, signed, and with protocol number.

Most likely, it is not issued by the Direccion, but it is something else which looks like it, but it is not the true thing (hence it has no proper stamp and protocol number next to a Registro de Sortida).

If truly issued by the Direccion, the issuance is unlawful (unless this protocol and criterias have been finished, but no one in the general public knows about it yet, and the protocol and criteria actually says that GUE can do what it is actually doing).

This is what an official doc. roughly would look like.

[nakatomi]

Are you just one more fanboy chiming in that knows nothing about this situation? Why do you think were the caves closed in the first place? What scientific work are you talking about? I love that we have so many people commenting on this even though they know jack s##t about what's been going on the last 5 years. I'm glad that so many people are getting so much glee out of this.

Can you please cut the "fanboy" calling and the swearing? It is beginning to get annoying.

While I understand your frustration, you're clearly barking at the wrong tree. As Grimm said, the divers apparently asked for and received proper permits, which is awesome for them.

All the gripes we have with the authorities treating us differently and with all the other groups not caring about the rules (e.g. the German agencies that do cave training on Mallorca, the Russian divers that dive it by paying money to the right people) - all that has nothing to do with GUE or, god forbid, "DIR".

[gianaameri]

As Grimm said, the divers apparently asked for and received proper permits, which is awesome for them.

GUE would deserve to dive these caves and speleology would benefit if they did a proper project and dedicated their resources to it, but what Grimm says does not fly.

On or about December 2015 there were 15 applications from separate groups (in addition to the KECP Application) sitting on the table of the responsible person with the Public Administration.

The only application allegedly being approved according to Grimm would be that of GUE (JP diving the caves as we speak/write/sulk/fume...).

The Public Authority would not do this.

There is the Press, lawyers, and angry cavers, many locals, on top of this situation, and who knows what/who else. There are formal complaints sent (not by me) way above the head of the Directora General at the political level.

There is NOT a chance in the world the Public Authority would sign a License for GUE and GUE only and keep doing nothing in respect of the other 15 or so Licenses sitting on the desk of the responsible person.

This License does not exist. The paper seen by Grimm in my opinion is something else, may look authentic and certainly does and would to him, I do not dispute that, but it is not a License from the Direccion...

It is not just Bent fuming. The island is fuming and this is because it is on Facebook and everybody is aware of it.

If on the other end the Public Administration really did give this License to GUE, ignoring or ahead of the other License Applications on the desk of the responsible person... well it is political suicide.

[nakatomi]

It is not just Bent fuming. The island is fuming and this is because it is on Facebook and everybody is aware of it.

I agree and as you know I'm very upset about the situation too. But again in my opinion this shouldn't turn into finger pointing towards GUE.
As you say, the best approach is to trace this back to whoever authorized the permit and find out how this could happen.

[Picea]

Gianaameri: Most importantly I would not jump into any conclusion before I had the facts straight, and I wouldn't expect to get them from a web forum (even if it was as esteemed as CDF ). Which is why I refraine myself from commenting anything but in general. Usually there's a clause that allows the authorities to give permits past all other regulation, if they feel a project is for the general good. Permits can often also be issued on the grounds, that the authorities want more information, before they can establish their criteria. This is quite usual; to be able to collect data, without having to go through the whole permitting process. Kannattaa tutkia, ennen kuin alkaa hutkia, an excellent Finnish saying which basically means it's good to do your research, before dealing punches left and right, holds especially true working with cases, where an official conduct is only in the making. This is because there's usually always a clause, which will allow exceptions, when the authorities feel it serves greater good. It's quite humane to feel there must be a misconduct somewhere, because one feels maltreated and disappointed. However that often is not the case.

bent: Fully realizing you're comment directed at my post was only intended to be insulting, I gladly admit I'm always, despite their affiliation, a fangal of hard working professionals, who do high quality work for greater good. Even more so, if the individuals have a generous, helpful and friendly attitude towards a fellow man.