Small Questions Thread

[bamafan]

If you are looking at diving aluminum tanks you can put a rig together very inexpensively. There is no need to go and buy a $500 - $700 bc. The following is a link to Oxycheq's website where they sell direct under another name. They are in Marianna close to the airport. You can do it cheaper than what they have listed but at least this might give you some ideas.

http://www.diveequipmentco.com/bcd-s/sidemount.html

[nakatomi]

Yeah, Phillip had a good thread that I read "Stealth and steel tanks". He (an aluminum Caribbean diver) didn't seem to have any issues using steel and actually loved them in the water.

My opinion on this is, take a great diver and throw the worst gear you can find at him and he'll trim out nicely and make a great dive.
You could send someone like Phillip into a cave wearing speedos and toss him an AL80 with a single reg on it and no harness and he would do great (and likely enjoy the dive too).
The same with baggy drysuits, floppy wings etc. If someone has control over his/her body and muscles, they are good to go with just about everything.

[Scubaru]

If someone has control over his/her body and muscles, they are good to go with just about everything.

I told y'all I'd be full cave by page 10. There goes my cert!

All jokes aside, thanks as usual for all the great material you guys are bringing to one thread. I actually might have multiple tanks now. My cousin is a retired navy diver who's offering me his doubles setup from his old rec days. He no longer dives. Not sure the specs nor certs on the tanks though. I'll be sure to come back and ask you guys your opinions once I have them in my possession. I think my LDS charges about $45 for hydro/vip/fill. How's that compare to FL? We seem to be higher on just about everything in the diving world. (ie: The same $70 mask was $30 at Edd's.)

[bamafan]

Steel 72's? They work great for sidemount tanks just don't overfill them much. 3600 - 3800 in them is a bomb.

[Jack Hammer]

A lot of caves in Mexico are relatively shallow, especially compared to Florida caves. Al80s also have plenty of volume for longer dives in Mexico. We made dives in the 3 hour range on a single set of double al80s with a lot of reserve left over. My 3 hour dives in Florida needed big steel tanks and stages.

[Scubaru]

If you are looking at diving aluminum tanks you can put a rig together very inexpensively. There is no need to go and buy a $500 - $700 bc. The following is a link to Oxycheq's website where they sell direct under another name. They are in Marianna close to the airport. You can do it cheaper than what they have listed but at least this might give you some ideas.

http://www.diveequipmentco.com/bcd-s/sidemount.html

If I even had a slight clue as to what I really needed out of a rig, I might look into that. Again, just looking for an out-the-box SM that will get me through all my training. No need for the slimmest or lightest, or trickest, etc. I think just about any big name SM will do the job for me at this time. I can always pick out the new car after the learners permit is expired. Still eyeing that sms75. Mainly because it's red and black, and those are my favorite colors. So yeah. Looking at full sm packages on CA... hell of a discount when bundling huh?

[bamafan]

In simple terms a bc is just a bag of gas with a harness to hold it on your back. There are several variations of this but in my opinion they generally break down into 2 broad categories. You have one basic design for aluminum tanks and another style for Florida steel tank diving. You can make one work using the others tanks but I don't think either is optimal when used with the others tanks. In the Florida style rigs you have 2 basic style wings. You have a donut style wing and a horseshoe style wing. I prefer the horshoe style wing that is in the Nomad and Armadillo. The donut style wings such as the SMS's, Halcyon, Recon etc have the door handles (rear attachment points for the tanks) on top of the wing. This will jack the rear of the tanks up out of trim when you add gas to the wing. I also believe that you should be weighted so that if you have to suck your tanks down low in an emergency you aren't overly light and fighting to stay off the ceiling. This generally means you need to add weight to the harness. I also believe that you should be weighted so that if you have a wing failure you remain fairly trim. The horseshoe wings generally have more lift in the butt to trim you out with gas rather than weights. I don't agree with this because it can cause problems if you have a wing / inflator failure. So in my opinion you need a wing that spreads the lift out over a bigger area. The SMS100 does a better job of this than the 75. At least as how it comes from the factory. Some people scrunch the top of the wing down with bungee and I believe that the 75 was designed to immulate this modification. The Halcyon does a better job of spreading the lift out better than either of the SMS 's and it doesn't have the plastic buckles that I find just clutter up the chest for no reason. It is still a donut style wing so the tanks get out of trim as gas is added to the wing. So in the Florida style rigs I prefer the Armadillo or the Nomad.

For aluminum tank rigs they bc's have basically evolved from the British Cave Diving Group's harness concept. These are fairly simple designs and the Razor was the first major commercially available rig to be available that I am aware of. The Stealth evolved from this. I have never been around a Stealth to even give an opinion as to which is better over it or the Razor. I don't think the Stealth would work well with backmounted stages as the dump valve is on your butt. I also find it interesting that they are coming out with a larger bladder tha spreads the lift out. From pictures I have seen of this style wing has the issue with looking like a beach ball when they have some air in them. When they are full they don't do this but do tend to rise up a good bit as they don't have anything to hold them down. You can counteract this by stretching the wing tight by adjusting the harness or bungees. The Dive Rite LTZ / LT fall in this category too.

As far as bundling I guess there is a cost savings. I personally would just buy used. You state you don't have a lot of money to spend. The SMS's don't hold their value from my experience you can find them for $200 - $250. The Dive Rite , Hollis or Hog regs can be bought for $100 or so per set used from what I have seen. So if money is a concern and you have already stated you just want something to get you through training I don't know why you would buy new. I personally would try several different style rigs before your cave class. I would find a donut style such as the SMS's a horshoe style such as the Armadillo and I would give the Dive Rites a look too. They are the cheapest out of the bunch if you are buying new and like I said by stretching the wing you can make them look pretty good in the water.

[FW]

In simple terms a bc is just a bag of gas with a harness to hold it on your back. There are several variations of this but in my opinion they generally break down into 2 broad categories. You have one basic design for aluminum tanks and another style for Florida steel tank diving. You can make one work using the others tanks but I don't think either is optimal when used with the others tanks. In the Florida style rigs you have 2 basic style wings. You have a donut style wing and a horseshoe style wing. I prefer the horshoe style wing that is in the Nomad and Armadillo. The donut style wings such as the SMS's, Halcyon, Recon etc have the door handles (rear attachment points for the tanks) on top of the wing. This will jack the rear of the tanks up out of trim when you add gas to the wing. I also believe that you should be weighted so that if you have to suck your tanks down low in an emergency you aren't overly light and fighting to stay off the ceiling. This generally means you need to add weight to the harness. I also believe that you should be weighted so that if you have a wing failure you remain fairly trim. The horseshoe wings generally have more lift in the butt to trim you out with gas rather than weights. I don't agree with this because it can cause problems if you have a wing / inflator failure. So in my opinion you need a wing that spreads the lift out over a bigger area. The SMS100 does a better job of this than the 75. At least as how it comes from the factory. Some people scrunch the top of the wing down with bungee and I believe that the 75 was designed to immulate this modification. The Halcyon does a better job of spreading the lift out better than either of the SMS 's and it doesn't have the plastic buckles that I find just clutter up the chest for no reason. It is still a donut style wing so the tanks get out of trim as gas is added to the wing. So in the Florida style rigs I prefer the Armadillo or the Nomad.

For aluminum tank rigs they bc's have basically evolved from the British Cave Diving Group's harness concept. These are fairly simple designs and the Razor was the first major commercially available rig to be available that I am aware of. The Stealth evolved from this. I have never been around a Stealth to even give an opinion as to which is better over it or the Razor. I don't think the Stealth would work well with backmounted stages as the dump valve is on your butt. I also find it interesting that they are coming out with a larger bladder tha spreads the lift out. From pictures I have seen of this style wing has the issue with looking like a beach ball when they have some air in them. When they are full they don't do this but do tend to rise up a good bit as they don't have anything to hold them down. You can counteract this by stretching the wing tight by adjusting the harness or bungees. The Dive Rite LTZ / LT fall in this category too.

As far as bundling I guess there is a cost savings. I personally would just buy used. You state you don't have a lot of money to spend. The SMS's don't hold their value from my experience you can find them for $200 - $250. The Dive Rite , Hollis or Hog regs can be bought for $100 or so per set used from what I have seen. So if money is a concern and you have already stated you just want something to get you through training I don't know why you would buy new. I personally would try several different style rigs before your cave class. I would find a donut style such as the SMS's a horshoe style such as the Armadillo and I would give the Dive Rites a look too. They are the cheapest out of the bunch if you are buying new and like I said by stretching the wing you can make them look pretty good in the water.

Great post. Another option is make your own. I don't like any of the commercially available sidemount rigs. I make my own out of a handfull of D-rings, belt sliders, etc, and a "cheap off ebay" OW jacket style BCD. I also have a couple jackets made of 1000 Deiner Cordura that I use if there is a chance of a lot of contact with limestone. The cheaper ones won't hold up to much contact.

[nakatomi]

Since you already made a choice regarding your SM/cave instructor, in my opinion you need to consult him before considering any gear purchases.
Knowing him and his preferences regarding SM rigs, I am sure you will be best off buying something from his shop, or similar merchandise (with his consent) on the second hand market.
This I say without being judgemental, you do need to use a rig that your instructor approves of, otherwise he can't properly teach you in it.

Although irrelevant in this context, my recommendations for a rig would be an Armadillo (any version), Nomad LTZ (preferably the latest version that accepts weight pockets) or a Nomad classic (discontinued).
All of these can be bought used and if you are lucky for little money too ($250-$300).
Knowing what I know now about donut bladders, I would NOT consider buying such a rig for cave diving and thus I would steer clear of the SMS75/100. But that's just my opinion...

As to other rig options like the Stealth, Razor or Diamond. I don't like them much, for various reasons, but they will probably work well nonetheless. And they have the advantage (like the LTZ) that they are travel friendly.

[Jax]

Mind if I make a few changes?

If I even had a slight clue as to what I really needed out of a Life support device, I might look into that. Again, just looking for an close-enough-for-gov't work SM that will get me through all my training. No need for me to learn what is best for me, etc. I think just about any big name SM will do the job for me at this time - so what if I cannot be my very best in it. I can always pick out the new car after the training, IF I survive. Still eyeing that sms75. Mainly because it's red and black, and those are my favorite colors, and that is way more important than suitability and survivability. So yeah. Looking at full sm packages on CA... hell of a discount when bundling huh?

Seriously - you don't seem to have the right mindset to be a tec diver, IMO.



All opinions are my own.