P II

[nakatomi]

Honestly (yeah I have 22 dives and I'm saying this) I think ANY program that is teaching 1/6ths is outdated... every person I' have known that took an intro class that included 1/6's dove 3rds ANYWAY.... its just like muscle memory... if you go switching the game in the middle it messes up your thought processes... Come on guys, if you have standards that are worth following maybe your divers would.... and you can have awesome instructors without regard to the agency.

Are you serious? I've never met anyone at the intro level breaking sixths. And If I did, I would have let him know exactly what I think of it.
Now some of the intro limitations, like not being able to leave the gold line or navigate a T, are not something I think makes all that much sense.
So in fact, some people "dance around" these limitations and run their primaries way into the cave to some line off the gold, or run a line from gold to practice "buddy searches" into side passages, thus sort of bypassing their limitations.
Actually I've helped people explore the limits of their intro rules too and think it's fine.
But, breaking sixths?, WTH is that about?
I'm beginning to think that maybe the intro limitations are not so much the problem as immature cave divers receiving Cave1 bonus limitations.

[twaldo]

Are you serious? I've never met anyone at the intro level breaking sixths. And If I did, I would have let him know exactly what I think of it.
Now some of the intro limitations, like not being able to leave the gold line or navigate a T, are not something I think makes all that much sense.
So in fact, some people "dance around" these limitations and run their primaries way into the cave to some line off the gold, or run a line from gold to practice "buddy searches" into side passages, thus sort of bypassing their limitations.
Actually I've helped people explore the limits of their intro rules too and think it's fine.
But, breaking sixths?, WTH is that about?
I'm beginning to think that maybe the intro limitations are not so much the problem as immature cave divers receiving Cave1 bonus limitations.

All I know is what I have been told and observed. There is NO way if I'm turning on 3rds that they should have been turning on 6ths. My SAC is not THAT bad.

I can also do 2 jumps, but you don't see me doing much of even 1 at this point. I am looking for somewhere closer to the entrance to do do some jumps, but think 700' in is a bit to far for me to do repetitive skills on a single dive and maintain 3rds.

And I have to disagree, limitations to JUST the gold line do make sense.... Maybe 1 nav decision.... really at Cave1 I think 2 is a bit much unless I'm going to have 50+ dives before I start doing more than 1.

As far as running their own line, I think that is totally legit as long as it doesn't make for a nuisance/hazard to other divers in the cave.

I just think everyone should be at 3rds (and non-expiring certs).

Tim

[twaldo]

I thought you went deeper than 100' in Little River?

it wasn't a planned depth violation..... dropped to 104' when I was signaling to my dive buddy to turn the dive, immediately returned to 98' (he was diving at a depth of 105' ish).... I think I am covered.

[patpicos]

and this thread has gone south!

[twaldo]

Tim on a difficulty scale of 1 - 10 for cave diving, church is a 3.

actually looks like a nice dive, a bit tight for me just yet as I'm not 100% comfortable on my buoyancy in the sense of where I think I should be.... with a lot of passage having 3-6 feet height and likely NO flow. If I can find a job that keeps me in Cave country ask me again in six months. It's not like I'm making silt angels, but my sense of location in the water column tends to have me bouncing off the ceiling still a bit much. Not as much as I did 6 months ago, but enough that I would say my personal buoyancy still needs work.

[nakatomi]

All I know is what I have been told and observed. There is NO way if I'm turning on 3rds that they should have been turning on 6ths. My SAC is not THAT bad.

I wouldn't know about your SAC rate, but I do remember you mentioning getting 700' on thirds on the Olsen line? I have been in P1 with intro divers who dove to sixths to Olsen sink, which is certainly quite a bit further than 700'.
So in my opinion that would be something to focus on, the SAC rate. Your new drysuit will certainly help.
My take is, a high SAC rate is no excuse to turn a dive late and break limits.

And I have to disagree, limitations to JUST the gold line do make sense.... Maybe 1 nav decision.... really at Cave1 I think 2 is a bit much unless I'm going to have 50+ dives before I start doing more than 1.

Of course limitations make sense - usually because the training status of the individual warrants/requires them.

As far as running their own line, I think that is totally legit as long as it doesn't make for a nuisance/hazard to other divers in the cave.

I think it's fine to either run funny lines or do jumps, if people are ready and prepared for it.
Which, thinking about it, at the intro Level they normally cannot not be. Jumps and (semi-)complex navigation is something taught at the Apprentice and Full Cave level.

I just think everyone should be at 3rds (and non-expiring certs).
Tim

Well, if it was up to me, nobody prior to a (solid) full cave cert level should be in a cave.

[bamafan]

Not to sound like an a$$ but I would really work on my sac rate if you are having a hard time getting to 700' of penetration distance in Peacock on 1/3 rds. I have met a good many divers who can do this easily on 1/6ths and they aren't really experienced. It seems to me this might be the issue vs. people busting their standards.

[twaldo]

and this thread has gone south!

That ALWAYS happens when I ask innocent questions... and Ken was just picking on me... (in a fun way)

[twaldo]

Not to sound like an a$$ but I would really work on my sac rate if you are having a hard time getting to 700' of penetration distance in Peacock on 1/3 rds. I have met a good many divers who can do this easily on 1/6ths and they aren't really experienced. It seems to me this might be the issue vs. people busting their standards.

I can make Olsen on 3rds (with some left over) Maybe I don't understand 6ths because I have not had that limitation... So if I make it to Olsen on 3rds and they make Olsen on 6ths what is the difference? I just never approached them because I did not want to accuse them of violating their rule of 6ths.... and well I did have some divers ADMIT to violating 6ths in favor of diving 3rds... but that is another story.

[twaldo]

Well, if it was up to me, nobody prior to a (solid) full cave cert level should be in a cave.

I think NAUI's concept is teach you what you need to know and then rely on the student to progress at their own rate until its time for the next class. I know that is what I am doing. I want to take my adv nitrox/deco class soon, but it will be another year before I am ready to do Cave2 (if I get to keep diving at my current frequency) which is how it should be.

You would rather a diver go from OW to FULL CAVE over a couple of weekends and then let them loose on the world? rather than stretch it out 6 months or a year before their next cert?

Not sure how a dry suit is going to decrease my SAC, would LOVE to hear that explanation.