Little River closing?

[Kelly Jessop]

Any park employee that get's "upset" from having to answer questions should find another job. We shouldn't have to kiss their ass to use OUR resources, nor send a committee of special people to communicate.

You are right,but there are some cave divers who can be rude and demanding, and the bad thing is to the receiver of the call, they can generalize to cave divers in general. I remember when I was working to get Jug Hole reopened after it was closed for about 4 years. I was getting some success, and I made the stupid mistake of announcing it before having an official open date. The park personnel got irate demands from people of why it wasn't open yet, which made the job that much harder. Sorry, but there are some real A**holes in cave diving that I wouldn't want opening their mouth because of the explosive diarrhea of negative rhetoric that spews forth.

[MORGAN]

In 11 years of going to Florida's cave country state parks, every park staffer I've met has been friendly and helpful.

I do try to avoid spewing any explosive diarrhea of negative rhetoric.

Kelly, I very much admire your use of language.

Mike

[curtschu]

,

You are right,but there are some cave divers who can be rude and demanding, and the bad thing is to the receiver of the call, they can generalize to cave divers in general. I remember when I was working to get Jug Hole reopened after it was closed for about 4 years. I was getting some success, and I made the stupid mistake of announcing it before having an official open date. The park personnel got irate demands from people of why it wasn't open yet, which made the job that much harder. Sorry, but there are some real A**holes in cave diving that I wouldn't want opening their mouth because of the explosive diarrhea of negative rhetoric that spews forth.

Kelly I think this is one of those situations that gets citizens of Florida pissed. We own these parks and it pisses us off when a bureaucracy dictates the public use and access to the resource. We have shown repeatedly that we are good users of low impact but our use is restricted more than anyone else. Look at any other area that is general admission use and you will see what I mean. We work really hard to be good patrons.

[Kelly Jessop]

,

Kelly I think this is one of those situations that gets citizens of Florida pissed. We own these parks and it pisses us off when a bureaucracy dictates the public use and access to the resource. We have shown repeatedly that we are good users of low impact but our use is restricted more than anyone else. Look at any other area that is general admission use and you will see what I mean. We work really hard to be good patrons.

So lets consider a scenario where there weren't public access limitations and rules, all groups get equal considerations because you feel you are more restricted than anybody else, lets use Peacock as the example. Presently there is a no fishing ban at Peacock 1,but remove that and allow all the anglers to dangle their hooks off the steps so they can catch the brim in the cavern zone,but the occasional snagged cave diver's dry suit will have to be the collateral effect. Allow the ATVs unfettered access, so between parking spaces being taking up by trailers, we will more ruts down the main road, and on pedestrian only areas. The small arms target shooters probably feel slighted, and from the end of P1 parking lot to P3 is probably a nice 100 yards for target practice.

There is a reason Florida has received an unprecedented 3 awards for their state parks,beating California and Texas, because they do an awesome job of balancing recreation and resource management,this with shrinking budgets. Is it perfect-no. Does somebody get slighted-yes But, they do a damn good job, good enough job that you got people from all 50 states and multiple counties that comes to visit.

You are one of the lucky entitled ones,if you don't like what you got then talk to your state senator and representative and tell them to tear the gate down at Peacock, and let everyone have at it. But just remember what places like Telford that had unfettered access looked like when open. Erosion out of control with roots exposed at the banks due to vehicular traffic everywhere, mountains of trash, crime with broken into vehicles, harassment of cave divers by the locals etc etc.

So, I am a lowly out of state visitor and user of the state parks. From my stand point compared to my state, and other states, I vote for Florida, and greatly appreciate their efforts to manage their public lands to the best of their ability,because I truly enjoy the sites.

[Bobby]

So lets consider a scenario where there weren't public access limitations and rules, all groups get equal considerations because you feel you are more restricted than anybody else, lets use Peacock as the example. Presently there is a no fishing ban at Peacock 1,but remove that and allow all the anglers to dangle their hooks off the steps so they can catch the brim in the cavern zone,but the occasional snagged cave diver's dry suit will have to be the collateral effect. Allow the ATVs unfettered access, so between parking spaces being taking up by trailers, we will more ruts down the main road, and on pedestrian only areas. The small arms target shooters probably feel slighted, and from the end of P1 parking lot to P3 is probably a nice 100 yards for target practice.

There is a reason Florida has received an unprecedented 3 awards for their state parks,beating California and Texas, because they do an awesome job of balancing recreation and resource management,this with shrinking budgets. Is it perfect-no. Does somebody get slighted-yes But, they do a damn good job, good enough job that you got people from all 50 states and multiple counties that comes to visit.

You are one of the lucky entitled ones,if you don't like what you got then talk to your state senator and representative and tell them to tear the gate down at Peacock, and let everyone have at it. But just remember what places like Telford that had unfettered access looked like when open. Erosion out of control with roots exposed at the banks due to vehicular traffic everywhere, mountains of trash, crime with broken into vehicles, harassment of cave divers by the locals etc etc.

So, I am a lowly out of state visitor and user of the state parks. From my stand point compared to my state, and other states, I vote for Florida, and greatly appreciate their efforts to manage their public lands to the best of their ability,because I truly enjoy the sites.

That was so well said it had to be repeated. Bravo

[Jay]

In 11 years of going to Florida's cave country state parks, every park staffer I've met has been friendly and helpful.

Yeah, when they had the long closure at LR to turn it into a cement pond I went to dive there very soon after it opened, probably one of the first 5 or 10 divers to go in there. It was the ass crack of dawn and they had just opened it up. There was a deputy and a parkie there and they helped me zip up my back shoulder zip dry suit so I could do a solo dive!

[curtschu]

So lets consider a scenario where there weren't public access limitations and rules, all groups get equal considerations because you feel you are more restricted than anybody else, lets use Peacock as the example. Presently there is a no fishing ban at Peacock 1,but remove that and allow all the anglers to dangle their hooks off the steps so they can catch the brim in the cavern zone,but the occasional snagged cave diver's dry suit will have to be the collateral effect. Allow the ATVs unfettered access, so between parking spaces being taking up by trailers, we will more ruts down the main road, and on pedestrian only areas. The small arms target shooters probably feel slighted, and from the end of P1 parking lot to P3 is probably a nice 100 yards for target practice.

There is a reason Florida has received an unprecedented 3 awards for their state parks,beating California and Texas, because they do an awesome job of balancing recreation and resource management,this with shrinking budgets. Is it perfect-no. Does somebody get slighted-yes But, they do a damn good job, good enough job that you got people from all 50 states and multiple counties that comes to visit.

You are one of the lucky entitled ones,if you don't like what you got then talk to your state senator and representative and tell them to tear the gate down at Peacock, and let everyone have at it. But just remember what places like Telford that had unfettered access looked like when open. Erosion out of control with roots exposed at the banks due to vehicular traffic everywhere, mountains of trash, crime with broken into vehicles, harassment of cave divers by the locals etc etc.

So, I am a lowly out of state visitor and user of the state parks. From my stand point compared to my state, and other states, I vote for Florida, and greatly appreciate their efforts to manage their public lands to the best of their ability,because I truly enjoy the sites.

Ok your right, I'm wrong, be a sheep take what the Gumint' gives you, be happy they don't take more away. All of your examples are HIGH Impact activities that stress the resource and need to be managed just like Hunting and fishing, FWC and Fisheries Commission close areas and open others, No one said they are not expected to Manage the resource. The FACT that resources are closed to reasonable use. Or My Favorite Threat, "Because We MADE THEM MAD" is a load of Horse $h.... This is always the case when someone questions how a resource is managed. I'm NEVER said that is needs to be a Free for ALL. But the threats and fear need to stop. We have Citizen groups active in the community these groups need to have real power to make use recommendations that are BINDING. Not the yea, yea we hear you that we get. Please understand I'm really not talking about the Peacock, Troy Royal, Etc. Group I think they are managed very well. But Night diving, Maybe some Primitive Camping might be a welcome change. I'm talking about the overall Resource management.

[Bobby]

Curt,
I didn't read Kelly's reply as a "he's right and your wrong" response. It was simply another point of view (POV). Intended or not, calling someone a sheep comes across as an insult. 100 times more when it is directed towards someone that has worked for decades to open access, maintain and improve land owner relations, and gather data for the sole purpose of helping science understand the aquifer system. IMHO an apology is due.

With my limited time on the NFSA board and having been involved, in a minor role, with other organizations and efforts to open systems I have a bit of experience as well. Kelly has been involved and forgotten more than I will ever know about opening systems and relations with land owners both private and government owned. As a volunteer for non profit organizations I have had a minor share of rude, heated, and even threatening response from a few cave divers. I've also been on the other side and have been out of line in how I approached or discussed issues. Now having a sliver of the experience Kelly and others have from their decades of volunteer work, I tend to more easily understand their perspective and listen far more to their advice.

It breaks down to simple resources in the end. When a particular group takes up a disproportionate amount of resources the response can easily be to remove access or inclusion of said group. This includes staff taking the time to deal with a high volume of phone calls or questions regarding an issue or project. There are organizations that can and will communicate with a unified voice to help a cause. This particular case the best choice is likely the NSS-CDS. It is not a matter of "threat and fear" it is a matter of reality and experience. Too often a lot of hard work goes down the drain simply because of peoples impatience and emotional reaction. Government workers and land owners are people as well and will tend to over react when faced with over reaction. Often that over reaction is the opposite of the desired result.

I could run down a long list of examples where years of work have been sunk, however this would likely turn this thread in a completely different direction as there are so many POV's to each and every example. LR has been run rather loose and has worked well for us cave divers over the years, IMHO. Personally I was not happy when they put all the cement in however I understand that they were doing their best to balance the resource across a wide range of interest. The present repairs for LR, as I understand the situation, are short term. Maybe we can get access while they are in process however there may be factors that all of us are completely unaware of. Just off the top of my head I can think liability due to heavy equipment and materials being staged. I have no idea and just throwing it out there. Lets not over react and create long term change due to a short term minor inconvenience.

[curtschu]

Bobby,

I was not attacking Kelly. I have experience with Resource restrictions outside of Cave Diving. It is something that has been kicked around for so long. "We don't Matter" "They Would Rather us Go Away" "They can Do what they want" These are just not true. Try flying Model Airplanes in a Public Park You'll End up on the news as A Terrorist flying a DRONE. When Blue Springs Orange City Manager Tried to unfairly tax Divers the effort to unify the pricing was rewarded.

[shellmoundal]

I spoke with Earl at the Suwanee County Parks and here is the real answer.
Little River will close in to the public in about 2 months for repair.
Good News is that the park will provide cave divers with a combination to the lock so that they will be allowed to dive. The number will be available at a later date. We are to close and lock the gate behind us so that the public will not enter. This is just like Cow.
WARNING-------------- If we fail to lock the gate behind us and they find it open, the diving will be closed. Be responsible and don't ruin it for everyone else.