Cookie vs. Arrow vs. REM

[victorzamora]

Oh, well maybe there's tactile information on the other side of the REM that can be used in a no vis scenario. Maybe the little purple arrow doesn't mean what people think it does. Or, maybe it does. Maybe the orientation of the REM doesn't mean what Victor assumes it does. Maybe only the owner (and perhaps members of his dive team) know how to correctly interpret a personal line marker.

Dave

I'm still having a problem understanding what the issue is. Aren't people trained to use their own personal markers? Doesn't every cave course involve "stress tests" where you go lights out or blindfolded and then various failures are thrown at you. Doesn't one of these "tests" involve navigational tools?

Listen, if you're grabbing the wrong type of reel on exit, can't identify your own personal markers, and start taking others, perhaps you should be looking at another sport. I'd say golf, but sometimes they have yardage marked on the sprinkler heads. You might get confused as to whether it was the 4th hole or the 18th hole they were referring to.

Let's put it this way, because this is my one problem with the REM Dave posted.

I decide that my team and I are exclusively using arrows. And, to be unique, we're putting them all in backwards. It's just always made sense to me that they should actually be backwards, and it'll help me know which ones mine are. I've put some very subtle tactile indicators to make it mine. On my dives, I'm dropping all of my arrows and so is my team. Now there's a bunch of conflicting arrows in the cave, but the tactile feedback means it's mine.

Is that okay? Surely you don't think so.

[victorzamora]

That is one reason I use clothespin type personal markers, nobody makes any assumptions about what they might mean.

Thank you.

[Dsix36]

Let's put it this way, because this is my one problem with the REM Dave posted.

I decide that my team and I are exclusively using arrows. And, to be unique, we're putting them all in backwards. It's just always made sense to me that they should actually be backwards, and it'll help me know which ones mine are. I've put some very subtle tactile indicators to make it mine. On my dives, I'm dropping all of my arrows and so is my team. Now there's a bunch of conflicting arrows in the cave, but the tactile feedback means it's mine.

Is that okay? Surely you don't think so.

This is an unreasonable exaggeration and we all know it.

A REM is not considered as anything other than another cookie UNLESS YOU CAN IDENTIFY IT AS YOUR OWN

[gearhound]

Let's put it this way, because this is my one problem with the REM Dave posted.

I decide that my team and I are exclusively using arrows. And, to be unique, we're putting them all in backwards. It's just always made sense to me that they should actually be backwards, and it'll help me know which ones mine are. I've put some very subtle tactile indicators to make it mine. On my dives, I'm dropping all of my arrows and so is my team. Now there's a bunch of conflicting arrows in the cave, but the tactile feedback means it's mine.

Is that okay? Surely you don't think so.

Surely you're idiots then? Correct?

Let's back up to your REM/Cookie that you use. You've said you've put all sorts of tactile markings on them so that you know that they're your cookies. So you're saying, in a no viz situation, you have the wherewithal to stop and figure out you're own REM, but if you came across someone else's REM, you would be confused and use it?

You're an Edd guy...what's the t-shirt they have? "If at first you don't succeed - then cave diving is not for you" The sport is definitely not for everyone. It does require some degree of intelligence to do it safely.

[victorzamora]

Surely you're idiots then? Correct?

Let's back up to your REM/Cookie that you use. You've said you've put all sorts of tactile markings on them so that you know that they're your cookies. So you're saying, in a no viz situation, you have the wherewithal to stop and figure out you're own REM, but if you came across someone else's REM, you would be confused and use it?

You're an Edd guy...what's the t-shirt they have? "If at first you don't succeed - then cave diving is not for you" The sport is definitely not for everyone. It does require some degree of intelligence to do it safely.

Really? You see zero chance of this? I'm not saying I'd do it. I've said this repeatedly. I've said repeatedly that I would have no problem coming across them. My point has been that, theoretically, the rectangular REMs are, in fact, directional. I wouldn't have a problem with one, but they're certainly not without fault. That's ALL I'm saying.

[victorzamora]

This is an unreasonable exaggeration and we all know it.

Well, you shouldn't be using arrows unless you can identify them...right?

I honestly don't think it's that exaggerated. The long-side of the REMs was designed to be "exit side"....same as the narrow-end of the arrows being "exit side." I guess I don't see much difference. Certainly exaggerated to prove a point, but I think the point is valid/relevant.

[gearhound]

Let me break it down Sesame Street style for you. Let's go over shapes. If it's a triangle - it directional. If its a circle, rectangle, shaped like a clothespin, shaped like a catheter, then its not directional. Does that help you better? And I know they talked about sharing, but if you didn't place it, it's not yours.

If I place a balloon on the side of the road, will people mistake that for a stop sign?

And just to let you know, REMs came about as a result of Accident Analysis. I believe it was the double fatality at Calimba that brought about some thinking as to how it could have been avoided.

[Dsix36]

Well, you shouldn't be using arrows unless you can identify them...right?

I honestly don't think it's that exaggerated. The long-side of the REMs was designed to be "exit side"....same as the narrow-end of the arrows being "exit side." I guess I don't see much difference. Certainly exaggerated to prove a point, but I think the point is valid/relevant.

I don't use arrows.

[rddvet]

Let's put it this way, because this is my one problem with the REM Dave posted.

I decide that my team and I are exclusively using arrows. And, to be unique, we're putting them all in backwards. It's just always made sense to me that they should actually be backwards, and it'll help me know which ones mine are. I've put some very subtle tactile indicators to make it mine. On my dives, I'm dropping all of my arrows and so is my team. Now there's a bunch of conflicting arrows in the cave, but the tactile feedback means it's mine.

Is that okay? Surely you don't think so.

Why is this still being argued. You just dont seem to understand or more likely want to understand the reality of whats being said. Do what you want. I dont care. Just dont put in a conflicting arrow and dont blindly follow someone elses markers. Thats it.


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[diver42]

Over the past week, I've seen a bunch of REMs in Mexican caves. What strikes me is this that the directional nature is not obvious. One side is slightly bigger, and some have additional subtle markings, but in an emergency, it seems like it would be difficult to tell direction. At the very least, it would inject some uneasiness and indefiniteness at exactly the point you don't want it.

In any event, here's a thing I've been wondering, through this entire thread: Are cave instructors still teaching students not to trust any markings that aren't their own? Yes, it's bad to change the general navigation of the cave. But that seems like a minor inconvenience compared to poorly marking a jump. Also, if REMs were intended for use in Mexico, isn't it odd to talk about the "general navigation of the cave"? Markers and lines seem to change all the time. Directions given by those familar with particular caves always come with the caveat, "but that may have changed [since yesterday]." And with all of the cenotes in any particular system, the "permanent" arrows rarely point to my exit for very long.

It seems quite odd, on the other hand, to worry that somebody else might mistake his REM for somebody else's. Surely arrows and cookies have the same problem, so they don't make the problem any worse. And for those of us who don't use them, they're meaningless and therefore no danger at all.