It adds to the cave junk that is scattered everywhere, along with all the left behind cookies, clothespins, ego markers and everything else.Originally Posted by LiteHedded
And for you people that want to tell me how things are done in Mexico, THIS is a picture of a telephone pole in Mexico City, do you really want to tell me how well you string things together? This is worse than Ginnie on memorial day.
"Have you ever noticed
When you're feeling really good
There's always a pigeon
That'll come shiat on your hood?" John Prine 4-7-2020
"Into the blue again; in the silent water
Under the rocks, and stones; there is water underground" Talking Heads
agreedIt adds to the cave junk that is scattered everywhere, along with all the left behind cookies, clothespins, ego markers and everything else.
And for you people that want to tell me how things are done in Mexico, THIS is a picture of a telephone pole in Mexico City, do you really want to tell me how well you string things together? This is worse than Ginnie on memorial day.
In a couple systems all the markers are becoming like range balls at a golf course. If they are noticed there for awhile they get pulled and become public domain (more or less)It adds to the cave junk that is scattered everywhere, along with all the left behind cookies, clothespins, ego markers and everything else.
.
"Not all change is improvement...but all improvement is change" Donald Berwick
What are the benefits of other markers that REMs do not provide? This is a serious question. When would it be a disadvantage to put a marker down that is 1) personally identifiable and 2) directional to the owner (or team) but non directional to anyone else?
I can easily see the use of arrows, cookies and clothespins in certain circumstances, but can not see the disadvantage of using a REM.
Ken
The Tech Diver's Prayer: Oh Lord, if I should die, please don't let my wife sell my dive gear for what I told her I paid for it..
The disadvantage of REMs is that they're directional to everybody. Everybody knows that the long side is the exit side.
Edit: I'm not saying it's a HUGE deal, but I'm saying they're very certainly NOT non-directional markers.
Then don't use them.
I do ask, how exactly are you thinking people are using them? It's not like people are rushing out to buy REMs to leave them haphazardly on lines, especially if you think they are expensive (they cost the exact same on the aqualung website). I think most people are deliberate about where they will place a line marker. I've already gone over the scenarios. I'll drop a REM to tie a jump into. It shouldn't cause confusion for anybody. It's a jump. If I'm leaving a marker for a promising lead on exploration, I drop a cookie. If I'm marking a way point on a circuit, I drop a cookie. At a T, I'll drop a REM marking my exit. It may not be your exit, but I'd assume that you were trained to drop your own personal marker indicating your exit at a T. It shouldn't matter whether it's a cookie, REM or clothespin, you should be looking for your own personal marker at the T.
Let's say that there is a REM tied on the middle of the line. Did you not look at it and reference it on the way in? So it shouldn't be a surprise on the way out.
I'm not sure if people are arguing just to argue, or if they are saying situational awareness isn't part of the training curicullum anymore. But a REM should not cause confusion for anybody.
(Vic, this wasn't directed at you personally. We were writing at the same time)
First, I'm not just talking about using the Apeks model that is a rectangle. So it is definitely not clear to everyone what they mean. Mine are modified round cookies. I guess you can tell that the modification involves a way to denote direction FOR ME. But as others have said, if it ain't your marker, then just ignore it. If you choose to assume a direction from someone else's personal marker, then you are a total screw up and I won't feel sorry for anything that happens. And REMs won't clutter the cave because you would be dropping some marker there anyway.
So I ask again, what advantages do other personal markers like arrows, cookies or clothespins have over REMs?
Ken
The Tech Diver's Prayer: Oh Lord, if I should die, please don't let my wife sell my dive gear for what I told her I paid for it..
it seems like a good way to get bil some beer money.
Kwinter, the advantage for most cave divers is that we dont have to go buy a bunch of new markers with zero benefit
If by "REM" you mean "personalized cookies" then it's a different story. This thread seems to be referring to REMs as the professionaly made ones designed that way. I'm pro REM-ish cookies. I'm not anti-REMs. I just don't think they're without their disadvantages. Not seeing it, to me, is simply not admitting it. Everything has SOME inherent weakness. Bil's REMs have some weaknesses as well. The biggest, in my mind, is their popularity. If nobody were diving them but him, they'd be the greatest things ever. When they're common enough that most cave divers know which side means "out" then it starts adding some weakness to it. When you drop a marker MEANT to be non-directional, but it is clearly directional to all divers passing it....why drop a non-directional in the first place?
I'm sure he's getting rich off of them like Forrest is raking in the dough with cave arrows.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks