Turn the dive...

[kensuf]

I think who is more important than when. Granted my cave training was only 15 years ago, but my 1991 2nd printing of "Cave Diving Communications" booklet by Prosser and Grey has all of these hand signals discussed, except maybe the middle finger. They are described in the fashion most here are using them.

Lloyd Bailey taught me twirly finger versus thumb in 1994.

[LCF]

rddvet, did you train in MX? I have found that the "exit speed must be faster than entry speed" concept doesn't seem to be as universally taught where people tend to dive in flow. I was actually trained to take "snapshots" of the cave on entry, so I would know it took "x" minutes to get from here to there, and then compare that with the time required on exit, to make sure we were moving a little faster on the way out.

In open water, I was taught that the twirly finger meant turn, and thumbs meant up, or end the dive expeditiously. In cave, I was taught that thumbs meant turn the dive, and there was no other signal for that. However, you really need something else, if you're poking around in side passages and just want to turn the team around and go back to the mainline, so I still use the twirly finger for that.

[rddvet]

rddvet, did you train in MX? I have found that the "exit speed must be faster than entry speed" concept doesn't seem to be as universally taught where people tend to dive in flow. I was actually trained to take "snapshots" of the cave on entry, so I would know it took "x" minutes to get from here to there, and then compare that with the time required on exit, to make sure we were moving a little faster on the way out.

In open water, I was taught that the twirly finger meant turn, and thumbs meant up, or end the dive expeditiously. In cave, I was taught that thumbs meant turn the dive, and there was no other signal for that. However, you really need something else, if you're poking around in side passages and just want to turn the team around and go back to the mainline, so I still use the twirly finger for that.

All training was done in florida. My first instructor pointed out that many people dont pay attention to exit speed, only time and distance on way in. I see why he pointed it out because I've done dives with multiple people that equate exiting to sightseeing because they busted butt to get in far. I prefer to be slow on the way in, sightsee and notate times and features. On the way out I can use those to time our exit. I dont leave expeditiously, but I always confirn our exit is at the same pace or faster than the way in. It helped us because we missed a hidden t in ressel in france. We realized we were in a different tunnel that paralleled our entrance but were able to use our speed in and landmarks to judge whether to continue on to the merge point or turn back to the t. I felt foolish for missing the t, but cave awareness took that nervous feeling away. Apparently its a well known t to miss.


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[victorzamora]

That's a good point, Lynne. In the flowing caves, when the "twirling finger of turn" comes out....I stop kicking. I take that time to really see the cave. My "snapshots" are all about gas, not time. Regardless of the conditions: To me, a thumb means no more sightseeing.

I do end almost all of my dives with a thumb, though. I use "twirly finger" to turn, no matter the situation (sick of this passage, I hit thirds, I want bacon, I'm cold, I'm unhappy exploring this tunnel). "Finger gun" is exit in that direction. "Karate chop" is go some other direction. So if we took a jump, turned it, and we still had plenty of gas, I'd "karate chop" to tell buddy to go that way. If we get back and I'm too close to thirds to want to continue, I "finger gun" in the direction of exit. My "dive thumbing" is after deco and/or safety stop. It's not uncommon for me to extend my last stop, but I'll give the "clean hands" symbol for cleared deco if asked about remaining deco. Also, I'll frequently practice mid-water deco stops/ascents/etc. Sometimes I want to keep playing with the fish or just don't want to get out of the water yet. Once I get to the "let's get out" point....it's a thumb. Typically it's signalled right after the last team member clears their computer. "Clean hands" followed by a pair of thumbs.

[Nitrogenius]

this has come up before, which has lead me to confirm we agree on the signals in predive, though so far I haven't met anyone who wasn't on the same page (twirly-woo to turn, thumbs up to get out without delay).

Depends on when they were trained. I didn't know about the twirly finger, until a few years ago.

Similar as to the Jump marking protocols it also seems to matter where you were trained and where you dove in order to mingle with different "schools"


In my Cave training up to Full Cave in Sardinia I was also taught to turn the dive with a thumb. A simple thumb would only mean the dive ends, but no hurry. If there was an issue firstly you would communicate the issue and as well the end dive and exit fast would be with a double thumb and could be accompanied by crossed arms..


Diving in Mexico after the first dive I thumbed I was taught to use the twirling finger for any simple turn in a dive and reserve the thumb for emergencies/fast exits..


I have come across both schools with dive buddies..

rddvet, did you train in MX? I have found that the "exit speed must be faster than entry speed" concept doesn't seem to be as universally taught where people tend to dive in flow. I was actually trained to take "snapshots" of the cave on entry, so I would know it took "x" minutes to get from here to there, and then compare that with the time required on exit, to make sure we were moving a little faster on the way out.

I have not been taught any of these and they do not seem to make much sense to me. Once you have left max penetration you constantly increase your safety margin anyways, so there is really no necessity to take care that you exit in same speed/time as on your way in unless you would go really extreme..
Surely you should not take ages to move out close to your turning point especially when you had gone as extreme as thirds, but after 200 psi or so I really do not see to put too much effort in watching your exit speed/time whether flow or no flow..


Obviously a different set of mind and approach needs to be taken diving downstream/syphon, but then you should also never be on thirds..

[Line Squirrel]

what does it mean when you see your buddy turn into a twirling dervish?

Either you need more HE or he needs less O2