Reading will get you in trouble

[Angie Reim]

First I'm not sure Angie if you are warning that my post is a possible violation of rule #4 or not

Didn't say - wasn't concerned. Just doing my job to remind what/whoever was coming next to keep the thread where it needs to be because it is a thread of potential, significant merit. I have no interest otherwise. I'm not Kreskin but I've been around the block enough times to see where things can go.

Peace. 8)

[MikeH]

By the way. What exactly is a Bin Laden?

The autocensor won't let you say str*ke.

As we all know, it's such an offensive word...and we are all severely mentally damaged as a result of it's use, so we must be protected from such horrific things....

Mike

[Angie Reim]

I think you make my point then... sort of. The speculation has been that more trained cave divers are dying because 1: (NSS-CDS Instuctor's logic) People are not taking the Full Cave Course as a single block of instruction and are then diving beyond the experiance and or trianing.
or 2: (my contention) There are more folks in overhead environments and this presents a higher ratio of health issue to the overhead environment, therefore more folks are going to die. (Pure numbers).......
Curt

FWIW. This is something that warrants discussion. I proof-read that article and spent some time running numbers and checking the statistics. Statistically, the conclusions appear correct. There is a trend toward a greater percentage of total # of incidences to be associated with 'trained' cave divers. However, in the greater context of all the variable - OW, OH, etc., what does this really mean?

I'm not sure. What could be causing this trend? How real is it? The author offered some possible explanations. The author also recognizes the need for additional data analyses. It's certainly worth looking at and expecting agencies to respond accordingly. Do we have a real problem and do we as a cave diving community need to do something about it? Nothing will happen if no one talks about it.

[Cave Ranger]

Can't use the word St**ke, Aye? That's very Funny and I'm Laughing myself stupid after I realized why it's censored.
I went to an event in West Palm about 2 years ago and the guest speaker was a world famous and accomplished diver. I lost count as to how many times he/she used that word to describe divers whom he/she determined as inferior and most likely to be a hazard to themselves or others in the Technical realm of diving. It was a very interesting and infomative lecture but I'm of the opinion that Egos that big can be dangerous also.
Hopefully I've been vague enough without breaking any Rules.
I really got a good laugh. Thanks

[DeWayne]

I can see your point Curt, I was just pointing out that to make a sound decision the instructor needs to actually spend some time with the prospective student. My concern would be more for the determined individual who gets turned away and then decides to undertake learning to cave dive on their own.

As Angie pointed out, that article ends with the notion that if we really want to know what is causing this trend, then a much more detailed study needs to be done. I personally think it has more to do with trained divers becoming complacent than with the manner in which the training is currently being presented.

[curtschu]

If you look at the deaths in the last 4 years 7 of 19 are attributed to lost/no line silt out or out of air. Two on the same day due to contaminated gas??? several to known health events, and a couple we'll never know...
My reasoning is this; the cause of the statistical rise in trained diver deaths is two fold. 1. already stated, there are just more trained cave divers.
2. and I think the most important, is the percentage of people diving in caves that are certified vs. not is far greater than it used to be.
I for one can tell you Peacock Springs used to be a zoo. Back in 1984 we would just show up and dive. I did my fifth dive ever going from peacock to pot hole and back. No reel, one small light per person, single tank with octo reg... How many rules did we break back then? ALL OF THEM and this was just a typical Saturday at Peacock/Orange Grove.
My mother's three sons are lucky to be alive. We as a group have done a great job getting the open water divers out of the caves, either by educating them or because most of the cool places to cave dive from the old days are now state parks and the access is controlled. What I’m trying to point out is the cave is not the causative agent in many of these deaths. Contributing sure, could one or two of these folks lived had they been diving in open water? Maybe but I have friend that keeled over in a Walmart and could not be revived. Is this a Shopping death? No just a sad death of a person too young to die, but it happens. Well think about it.

Dewayne, I would hope that the instructor taking the time to evaluate a prospective student will see that determination is not bravado or ego or worse derangement.

Curt

[Jay]

You are making it harder than it is.
First throw out the physical ones. It does not matter if you would have lived if your aneurism/str*ke/heart attack occured on land. Your training did not kill you and the cave did not kill you. The same thing could happen if you were out hunting or running by yourself.

Mental mistakes are killing certified cave divers. Poor decision making, whether it be diving beyond ones experience/depth/training or complacency or just flat out poor attitude.

[curtschu]

That is exactly my point if you throw out the ones that don't count the numbers are not rising at the alarming rate that Mr.Bozanic asserts.
I agree we nee to all we can to make sure folks are diving within the level of their experience. I am just concerned that alarmest reports will damage our efforts at convincing land controlers we can do this realitively safely.

Curt

[Anonymous]

How do I find the article that everyone is referring? The topic is interesting.

[mpoucher]

That is exactly my point if you throw out the ones that don't count the numbers are not rising at the alarming rate that Mr.Bozanic asserts.

While I agree that the numbers are inflated, the fact that trained cave divers are dying is alarming in itself. For a long time, we could claim that there weren't any deaths of trained cave divers. Unfortunately, I think with the rise in popularity of cave diving, we also get a certain number or participants that shouldn't be in the sport.

I can't say I have any solutions, and thinking about the recent accidents, how do you prevent or train someone to NOT ignore an exit marker and swim 1000 feet the wrong way? How do you train or prevent divers with a history of poor decisions and unsafe practices from making that fatal dive? How do you train or prevent divers from ignoring all the recommendations and scootering into an unfamiliar and unforgiving passage in a cave?

Maybe the best we can do is openly discuss these accidents in training and in the publications so we can hopefully learn from them. Maybe they should be incorporated in the training programs along with the classic lessons we learned from "Blueprint.."

the rise in Trained cave diver Fatalities is because 1. Instructors are out to make money so they train anyone with payment. 2. People are cheap so they will only take the minimum level of training that allows them access to systems.

I don't think there is any evidence that fatalities are linked to this. The recent fatalities involved full cave trained and experienced divers and I can't recall any where this was a factor in the death. I think this may have a lot to do with conservation, or the lack thereof. How many hand, fin, face plants in Peacock are due to lack of training and/or experience? Most maybe? When was the last time you accidentally sank up to your elbow in the clay?