Reading will get you in trouble

[curtschu]

Ok so the new issue of UWS finally arrived and I started looking at some of the Accidents in Florida. Where in the world is Zoo Hole?
I had a discussion with a NSS-CDS instructor who is of the opinion that the rise in Trained cave diver Fatalities is because 1. Instructors are out to make money so they train anyone with payment. 2. People are cheap so they will only take the minimum level of training that allows them access to systems. He will only take on a student that is willing to do full cave, and he is very discriminating on who he will train. My contention is that just like motorcycles when the number grows exponentially the number of "Trained diver fatalities" is going to rise. It's the Odds of probability working against the group. It seems to me the trained folks that has died had some type of other health issue (heart attack, stroke, aneurism) while diving. The contention that they might have lived if they were not in a cave, so this is a Cave diving Fatality might be a stretch.
Anyway, plan your dive, dive your plan, stay within your EXPERIENCE and training, be as safe as possible.

Curt

[Angie Reim]

Well I'll be darned! I'm not the only one that reads it! 8)

As to the above: I think it's okay, but let's be careful.

Remember Rule #4: If you want to know a policy of sorts from one of the cave diving organizations, contact them direct. They are not under any obligation to monitor this forum. Any responses you get on this forum may NOT be representative of cave diving organizations. To contact a leading cave training organization, click on one of these links: NSS-CDS NACD IANTD GUE NAUI TDI CDG WKPP

(Nope. The links don't work. I ain't smart enough ya'll to make that happen here. If you gotta have it, go to the Forum Rules page.)

[Jay]

The Odds of probability don't apply in this case. Yes, you can make a case that the more divers trained, the more trained divers die, but it has nothing to do with real probabilities. There are too many variables concerning the physical and mental health of the participants. Trained divers are dying who have physical health problems and trained divers are dying who have mental health problems (lack of discipline and poor decision making skills).
That's it. Either your body gives out on you or your brain gives out on you,. That's how trained divers die.

Everyone knows someone who shouldn't be diving because of their physical and/or mental states.

As far as figuring that out during a training class....

Good Luck

[traveler]

Ok so the new issue of UWS finally arrived and I started looking at some of the Accidents in Florida. Where in the world is Zoo Hole?

There's a Zoo Hole off Grand Bahama island...

[curtschu]

First I'm not sure Angie if you are warning that my post is a possible violation of rule #4 or not! I simple Identified this particular instructor as certified to instruct cave diving through a particular agency. There was no Opinion or statement regarding the mertit of or lack there of. Just a statement of fact. Jay I think it is absolutly incumbant on instructors to judge the people they choose to certify as to their mental state in the context you use. If you are instructing a person that you have a reasonable expectation is going to a: dive beyond their certification. b: is mentally unstable (talks of suicide). c: A Total Jerk Off (doesn't care about the cave just wants to go deep, far) you need to tell that person you are not the instructor for them. As far as Zoo hole cave goes, the 1994 report has two fatalities in May at Zoo Hole, Florida???? Anyone know where Zoo Hole is?

[DeWayne]

More often than not it takes more than a casual encounter to fully judge someone's capacity. Many said that I had no business cave diving at first and that I would likely never make it due to my past injuries. In my last medical release my doctor actually wrote down how much he had seen me benefit from cave diving, both mentally and physically.

[Cave Ranger]

I did a Google search for Zoo Hole Florida and all I got was the "Incident/Accident" report that started this confusion to begin with. I'll bet it's a typo or the name has been changed since then.
As for the other issue, and this is just my two cents, Even the most minor Stroke, Heart attack, Seizure, Etc is very likely to be Fatal in an overhead environment. Most people survive these kind of occurances on land and even during openwater dives when they are brought to the surface in time. Alas Even if your only a few hundred feet back in an underwater cave and have a health problem you had might as well be on Mars.
Here's an unpleasent thought. Most people don't die from Vomiting on dry land for whatever reason. Should you become Nauseous underwater and are not able to hold the reg in your mouth through the entire process you are very likely to Drown. Underwater changes everything. Underwater in a Cave changes everything times a Hundred.
Given the increasing number of Divers who are taking up our Sport it stands to reason that some of us will have these kinds of things happen to us even if we are highly trained, follow all rules, and use proper equipment and techniques.

[Cave Ranger]

By the way. What exactly is a Bin Laden?

[curtschu]

I think you make my point then... sort of. The speculation has been that more trained cave divers are dying because 1: (NSS-CDS Instuctor's logic) People are not taking the Full Cave Course as a single block of instruction and are then diving beyond the experiance and or trianing.
or 2: (my contention) There are more folks in overhead environments and this presents a higher ratio of health issue to the overhead environment, therefore more folks are going to die. (Pure numbers)

As for folks like Dewayne as I've never met you I can not speak to your specific circumstance but I will assume' you spent a fair amount of time talking to at least a couple of instructors, They listened to your desire to learn cave diving and based on what you said desided you were not crazy just passionate to do something others told you you couldn't do (insert Matt the dreamer here) but whether you realize it or not you were assessed.

My concern is not with the special case but the seemingly normal person who walks into a shop and with little more conversation than "hey you teach cave diving here?" why yes I do, the cavern course is $100"
"I want Full Cave I'm AOW now"
"Ok thats $1000 and takes 7 days"
"Cool here's my visa, see you Saturday"

Now I might be over simplifying things but I have seen the look on peoples face in the LDS when you carefully explain the level of commitment to be a cave diver not just a guy diving in caves.
I'm not saying seven day wonders are not good cave divers
Far from it. I'm one but then I did not go home and not dive, let alone cave dive for 6 months to a year afterward.

I know that instruction is a profession and those guys gotta make a living. but they are also the only line of defense, once a goober gets a full cave card he cane dive just about anywhere he wants and there no stopping him. Even if he can't find anyone to dive with he will solo.

I know this is a little rambling but the point is the article in UWS and what is causing the trend.

Curt

By the way. What exactly is a Bin Laden?

The autocensor won't let you say str*ke.