Sexism?

[TracyN]

I don't really run into sexism much. At first I was kind of taken back by the amount of times I got hit on but then I realized cave diving isn't unlike any other co-ed sport. It's human nature. People are going to flirt with each other and think that they need to help "the weaker sex". As long as everything is kept respectful on all sides there is nothing wrong with having a little clean fun now and then. I came from the fire service and EMS, and cave divers are tame compared to those guys. I always carry my own equipment as I feel if you can't carry it you can't dive it but I will not refuse any acts of chivalry to help carry a tank or two if offered. People get way too uptight at times. Cave diving is supposed to be fun.

[Squirrel Girl]

No more than the male model types they're posing with. I prefer advertisements that contain actual useful information about products, but they're getting ever more scarce.

I see a lot of "attractive" people in diving ads. But there's a significant amount more of overt sexuality associated with the women models.

[jj1987]

Does anyone feel Agnes (an attractive female) was treated differently or encouraged differently than if a young male would have been doing the same level of dives at the same age/experience level?

I've taken two courses from female instructors, and felt I learned a lot from each of them. Both of them are better divers than I suspect I'll ever have the time and desire to become. I've dove with multiple females (I can think of 7 off the top of my head in the last few years) and never noticed any different treatment, aside from assisting with carrying tanks or scooters, or doing some extra decompression. I do notice that the females I've dove with are quite a bit less aggressive in their personal goals when it comes to diving, and tend to be more particular on finesse.

[FW]

Does anyone feel Agnes (an attractive female) was treated differently or encouraged differently than if a young male would have been doing the same level of dives at the same age/experience level?

The sad fact of life is, Agnes died because she was out to prove she could do anything men could do. Well she did, she died trying to prove something, like a lot of guys have done in the past

[tbone1004]

hey that picture was of a skinny canadian, so not quite all fat old guys....

either way I think cave diving is an interesting discussion for this article. I'm sure you were subject to quite a bit more sexism in the 90's when you were first getting into it, but I think now it's more of an interest than confusion. I.e. we were at Edd's and Sam A. called us out for "all you white guys look the same", we were literally rolling on Edd's driveway, mainly because we had a black guy with us, few and far between. We met another black guy this past weekend at JB, and it's more interesting than anything that a non straight, white, gun loving, plane flying, engineering male is cave diving, there aren't that many out there and with women especially it's a huge respect thing because it's totally badass. Now like I said, I'm sure it was very different when you started getting into this with Paul 20+ years ago, but having talked to Dawn K. quite a bit about her time in the WKPP it wasn't actually all that bad at least in the cave diving community, the rest of the diving community rather sucks, but I think this one is quite unique, at least in my observations. Fitting the above stereotype puts me outside the scope of this conversation, but the only thing different I'll tend to do is offer to carry bottles or dpv's, but I do that for the older divers as well, more common courtesy than anything, and it's not always accepted but usually appreciated.

I think you'll get a lot of insight from Dawn as she was in with the WKPP hardcore guys in the 90's and that was a very different time than it is now.

[FW]

...I'll ask this on the thread--Does it bother any of you about sex pot bikini babes in dive gear advertisements? It does me.

I really think nobody (male or female) falls for that type of advertising. Where it falls short the most is that while it gets young men's attention, it doesn't get the right kind of attention from women.

[MORGAN]

I see a lot of "attractive" people in diving ads. But there's a significant amount more of overt sexuality associated with the women models.

Yes, you're right. Sex sells, most divers are men, and advertising and marketing are all about manipulating behavior.

[sskasser]

Maybe I've been lucky, or maybe I've been oblivious (and I'm okay with that), but I haven't really experienced any negative sexual bias. I love chivalry and absolutely do not mind a "Oh, that looks heavy, sweetie! Want me to carry those tanks for you?" I KNOW I can carry them and I sure as HELL don't mind if some dude wants to do it for me. No skin off my back. Being offended is a personal decision, and unless it involves someone being hurt who can't defend themselves, not much offends me. That said, I try not to offend others. I fail often.

When I was single, I loved the ratios of male to female as well I'm definitely a glass-half-full-with-room-for-another-half-glass-of-awesomeness kinda girl, ymmv.

After twenty-five years in the IT arena, I'm fairly accustomed to running with the guys. Pinups don't bother me. Hooters doesn't bother me (although Wing House has friendlier waitresses and better wings). Attractive sells, be it attractive women, cars, men, or puppies. It's just a fact of life in advertising. That said, the most attractive people, male or female, are those who smile from the inside, are kind, are self-confident, and aren't afraid of soap.

I do have one sexist incident that made me laugh when it happened and still makes me laugh! 4 of us (3 guys and me, go figure) had chartered a tech boat through a dive op that was also running rec boats. We were in line with a large group of rec divers to sign in for the boats. A very nice gentleman in line ahead of me picked up on bits of our conversation, and simply being friendly, said "Oh, you're going on that TECH boat with those guys? They do those long dives, don't they? Do you get bored waiting for them or just enjoying sunning while you wait?" I just smiled. It was an easy enough mistake. He meant no harm, truly. I was saved from answering as we both got called up next. As I stood next to him signing in, I opened my c-card book on the counter and pondered aloud "Hmmmm, should I use my Trimix Instructor card or my Cave Instructor card?" The look on his face was PRICELESS! I just smiled. He caught up with me outside. He was mortified and apologized profusely, and asked me out to dinner Of course, my Neanderthal buddies saw me being flirted with and were totally grossed out, being that I'm one the guys and nowhere near a girl

Do women get treated differently than men? Hell yes, by other women and by men. Is it a bad thing? Not necessarily. Bad is subjective and up to personal interpretation. I dislike the male bashing that seems to be acceptable, and I abhor abuse of women. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Let's get rid of both!

Shirley, who doesn't mind in the least if you want to carry my tanks, open doors for me, or give me bacon no matter what your gender!

[chrpai]

I'll ask this on the thread--Does it bother any of you about sex pot bikini babes in dive gear advertisements? It does me.

And all the men look like GI3. I dunno, maybe it's explotive (in both cases) maybe it's just marketing. I talk to my girls about it so they are aware of it and can see through it.

[snakedoc]

Personally, I'm sick and tired of cave diving women undressing me with their eyes and purposefully dropping their gear at dive sites, knowing I will bend over to pick it up. I've even had to stop wearing my ruby slippers. And I've had to remove my " honey bee" antenna off my dry suit hood! Where does it end?