Hart Springs - Dec. 20/14

[WEPIV]

I was in Hart once with John Spann and as we were heading out (like the last few hundred feet or so) we noticed that the current had changed and was slightly coming in instead of out.
We looked at each other and quickly completed our swim out just in case but it was slow and steady coming in, not drastically.

[LiteHedded]

Yea I've seen it. Swallets and tidal caves mostly

[Jerry]

Swallets and tidal sea caves are NOT river flood induced reversals! And wouldn't a reversal in a swallet be a good thing???? The whole positive outflow thing???????

[jebernot]

I think Jerry has more knowledge about geology/hydro geology than most of North Florida cave divers combined.

[Jerry]

Yea I've seen it. Swallets and tidal caves mostly

So I have given this more thought; the original discussion concerned flow reversals caused by rising river levels, aka flooding.

I have some questions for lite headed: how do swallets and tidal changes pertain to this discussion?

How does river flooding reverse flow in a swallet?

The only way any springs on the Suwannee or Santa Fe rivers (the rivers flooding) would reverse rapidly and violently would be in a flash flood situation. The drainage basin for these rivers are far too large to create a flash flood scenario.

So what you are saying is that you haven't witnessed a spring on the Suwannee or Santa Fe rivers reverse flow rapidly or violently.

Jerry

[LiteHedded]

Nah I've never seen it in a Santa fe or Suwannee cave. Happy new year

[FW]

I went to watch Little during the flash flood in 2008, caused by the rill in the Okefenokee being opened the spring after the big fire. Little River went up really fast, and after an hour or so, it was siphoning so hard that there was a whirlpool over the cave, with the surface being depressed several inches. The river stage graph was nearly as steep this year. I agree with LiteHedded, recommending a dive in such conditions is a bad idea.

[Jerry]

Rill?? Is that a flood gate to a dam? So litehead is arguing non-related events and you are bringing up a one-time event. Its funny because one of the old time cave instructors and I were discussing this yesterday. We were both reminiscing about the time when springs (Little River in particular) truly had strong flow. CO2 headache type flow. The time before internet river gauges. Word would get out that the river was coming up and everybody would flock to Madison, Little River, and Manatee because the flow was being counteracted by the weight of the rising river. It was a stellar time to dive those systems.

Having been in the water during a reversal at several different systems; I maintain that it is still a good and relatively safe (this is cave diving) time to dive. ESPECIALLY now that you can watch the flood pulse on the water management districts level gauges as it moves down the river.

Jerry

[LiteHedded]

Rill?? Is that a flood gate to a dam? So litehead is arguing non-related events and you are bringing up a one-time event. Its funny because one of the old time cave instructors and I were discussing this yesterday. We were both reminiscing about the time when springs (Little River in particular) truly had strong flow. CO2 headache type flow. The time before internet river gauges. Word would get out that the river was coming up and everybody would flock to Madison, Little River, and Manatee because the flow was being counteracted by the weight of the rising river. It was a stellar time to dive those systems.

Having been in the water during a reversal at several different systems; I maintain that it is still a good and relatively safe (this is cave diving) time to dive. ESPECIALLY now that you can watch the flood pulse on the water management districts level gauges as it moves down the river.

Jerry

you didn't say anything about 'just river caves' in your original post that i responded to. i know two people who nearly didn't make it out of a cave that reversed on them while on a dive. still, it wasn't on the santa fe or suwannee. caves exist outside of these rivers...

cheers

[PfcAJ]

So I have given this more thought; the original discussion concerned flow reversals caused by rising river levels, aka flooding.

I have some questions for lite headed: how do swallets and tidal changes pertain to this discussion?

How does river flooding reverse flow in a swallet?

The only way any springs on the Suwannee or Santa Fe rivers (the rivers flooding) would reverse rapidly and violently would be in a flash flood situation. The drainage basin for these rivers are far too large to create a flash flood scenario.

So what you are saying is that you haven't witnessed a spring on the Suwannee or Santa Fe rivers reverse flow rapidly or violently.

Jerry

I've been in a swallet where the creek running to it had dried up. While diving, a storm rolled in and that dry creek became no longer dry. Water started moving back into the swallet.