Recalculating Thirds

[rddvet]

Just look at the amount of cave divers that use O2 for accelerated decompression and have never received formal AN/DP training.
There are a lot of them around.
And guess during which part of their classes they learned that, informally more or less?
There are many cave instructors that incorporate decompression on O2 and even stages into their curriculum, which may or may not be a violation of standards, depending on the agency.

I guess I'm not following that relevance completely?

If an instructor is teaching a deco procedures class to run at the same time as the cave class that's one thing. That's not what was happening in this case.

I completely disagree with every example you've posted as being OK, and don't really follow what you're trying to explain. I wouldn't take a class with an instructor who tells me they'll "teach me a little deco" as part of their class unless I was taking a deco class as well.

Just because lots of people do it doesn't make it right, and it is clearly stated that cave 1 is not to include deco, so I don't understand the relevance. An informed student taking a NAUI cave1 class should know that deco isn't part of it, and if they aren't trained in deco procedures and do it anyway because the instructor said it's ok, then they're idiots and shouldn't get a card (and the instuctor shouldn't give them one).

[nakatomi]

I completely disagree with every example you've posted as being OK, and don't really follow what you're trying to explain. I wouldn't take a class with an instructor who tells me they'll "teach me a little deco" as part of their class unless I was taking a deco class as well.

As you will know, completing a cave class will, depending on the area/caves it is done in, not be possible without doing decompression dives.
Surely in Mexico decompression is not needed, neither would it be at Peacock for example.
Other caves however do require decompression, again that much you know.

If you look at the requirements the leading agencies have set up for the cave curriculum, Advanced Nitrox/Decompression procedures is (for all I know) not a prerequisite.
So it is up to the individual instructor to require it, or to provide equally useful and safe decompression training to the student within the spectrum of the cave class.
My instructor required AN/DP for me to complete full cave, other instructors certainly do not require it and teach it as part of the cave class.
The latter was my point.
I believe, as you put it, there are quite a few "idiots" around who gladly accepted their informal and complimentary AN/DP training and are doing pretty fine with it.

[rddvet]

As you will know, completing a cave class will, depending on the area/caves it is done in, not be possible without doing decompression dives.
Surely in Mexico decompression is not needed, neither would it be at Peacock for example.
Other caves however do require decompression, again that much you know.

If you look at the requirements the leading agencies have set up for the cave curriculum, Advanced Nitrox/Decompression procedures is (for all I know) not a prerequisite.
So it is up to the individual instructor to require it, or to provide equally useful and safe decompression training to the student within the spectrum of the cave class.
My instructor required AN/DP for me to complete full cave, other instructors certainly do not require it and teach it as part of the cave class.
The latter was my point.
I believe, as you put it, there are quite a few "idiots" around who gladly accepted their informal and complimentary AN/DP training and are doing pretty fine with it.

Maybe we're looking in two different directions or maybe I'm dense and missing something, but considering we lnow that naui cave 1 doesn't allow decompression, I dont see how this is relevant to the initial conversation.


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[nakatomi]

Maybe we're looking in two different directions or maybe I'm dense and missing something, but considering we lnow that naui cave 1 doesn't allow decompression, I dont see how this is relevant to the initial conversation.

I don't know the standards for NAUI cave 1, nor could I know the standards of the agencies I was trained for since they are not public.
As a matter of fact, I never cared for the standards, since that was my instructors job (and my point).

[rddvet]

I don't know the standards for NAUI cave 1, nor could I know the standards of the agencies I was trained for since they are not public.
As a matter of fact, I never cared for the standards, since that was my instructors job (and my point).

I guess we disagree. I think it's not solely the instructor's job. There has to be some level of responsibility on the part of the student. I guess we should digress on this point since we've gotten way off track on this thread.

[nakatomi]

I guess we disagree. I think it's not solely the instructor's job. There has to be some level of responsibility on the part of the student. I guess we should digress on this point since we've gotten way off track on this thread.

I agree that maybe there should to be such a level of responsibility.
But for that to happen, the agency would need to publish the entire standards and implement a fully functioning quality control system.
If you want to look at how that is done, take a look at GUE.

[rddvet]

I agree that maybe there should to be such a level of responsibility.
But for that to happen, the agency would need to publish the entire standards and implement a fully functioning quality control system.
If you want to look at how that is done, take a look at GUE.

OK now we agree

[nakatomi]

OK now we agree

[rddvet]

For one RDDVET at the time I thought he was the greatest instructor and that everything he was teaching me was the correct way. Like most new students going in, I didn't know what the standards were, what was supposed to be taught, and how those standards were supposed to be taught. I didn't even know what drills were to be expected until we got into the water. I will stand by my opinion and say, yes he was a crappy instructor. There is no getting around that. I will be the first one to admit, and I have in the past, that I shouldn't have gotten a C-card in the beginning. I have accepted that and frankly I'm not ashamed. The only thing I would have changed is going with a different instructor in the first place with better standards. Do you hear me?? I am not ASHAMED of my initial shortcomings and would tell them to the world if they really wanted to know. Because some great buddies and mentors had the guts to point out those flaws I am a better diver today. People can talk it up on the internet all day long being the super internet divers they are. Love or hate him, I have Pete to thank for my real wake up call. He tells it straight up and doesn't hold back. For that I thank him. The deco dive I admit I was extremely task loaded, I monitored my air but I didn't monitor my computer as much because we were in the front of Ginnie for God's sake. Had we gotten a proper surface interval the deco would have never happened. Do you want to hear it to make yourself feel better, to make yourself feel like the super diver, yes I sucked in the beginning. I sucked and that's a point I will not deny. You find me one diver who never sucked in the beginning or struggled. There may be a few out out there but I think it's safe to assume that many of us had bad habits we had to break and were not instant divers. It's starts with crappy OW training.

Do you want to know why I never reported this instructor? At the time I didn't think he was doing anything wrong. The deco thing, I thought, maybe the agency gave some latitude. It wasn't until I got to diving with other instructors that I realized my training was sub par. By the time I realized I could make a report I figured that too much time had elapsed and filing a report would make no difference and plus I moved on. You can go on hating me all you want but frankly I don't care one psi. Dive more and post less!!

This has nothing to do with skills. The issue is one of mentality. At the time you had several mentors trying to help you, but you had a closed minded, not willing to accept the help attitude. That's why hearing you talk so badly about your instructor is such a thorn in my and so many others' side. There's more to the story than you got bad instruction, and seeing a one sided account of it posted on forums bad mouthing the instructor with no notion of any personal responsibility from your part gets old. That's my issue.

I'm glad Pete's loud mouth was what finally made the difference. He wasn't the first to try and help, I'm sure he was just the loudest.

[nakatomi]

This has nothing to do with skills. The issue is one of mentality. At the time you had several mentors trying to help you, but you had a closed minded, not willing to accept the help attitude. That's why hearing you talk so badly about your instructor is such a thorn in my and so many others' side. There's more to the story than you got bad instruction, and seeing a one sided account of it posted on forums bad mouthing the instructor with no notion of any personal responsibility from your part gets old. That's my issue.

Richard, I tried very hard to understand what your are driving at and I really don't get it.
Tracy has fully admitted to her shortcomings in the past and she has been very openly doing so for quite a while.
What more is there to ask?
Personally I would be more interested in how she is doing as a cave diver in late 2014, as opposed to 2011 or 2012.

Concerning your post that I just quoted, I fail to see any new information on your side, except a potential that may cause this thread to self-ignite. As a moderator I would kindly ask all of you not to to try to rub anything in too much, as it may lead to unwanted siltouts. Thank you.