Better Cave Maps

[victorzamora]

This was brought up in another thread, and it's left me curious. In an age of computers being SO prevalent (including the smartphone and they're ubiquitous), many cave maps are unbelievably outdated. I'd love to see a good repository of digital cave maps. That way, new surveys could be updated and uploaded as often as nightly! There's no reason that FL cave maps should be as old, outdated, an uncirculated as they are. The only GOOD cave map I've found is this one for Ginnie, and it's unbelievably good. I don't know how updated or complete it is (I know it doesn't have "the back"), but it's a ton better than the HITW, Twin Cave, Peacock, JB, Indian, etc maps that are miserable.

Not only that, but the MX maps are GORGEOUS. I bought one and am framing it! I'd love to see something like this done for US caves.

Also, is there a way to add a "restricted" area to CDF where people can post unpublished or uncirculated cave maps? Even if it requires proof of certification for entry or something.

[LiteHedded]

This was brought up in another thread, and it's left me curious. In an age of computers being SO prevalent (including the smartphone and they're ubiquitous), many cave maps are unbelievably outdated. I'd love to see a good repository of digital cave maps. That way, new surveys could be updated and uploaded as often as nightly! There's no reason that FL cave maps should be as old, outdated, an uncirculated as they are. The only GOOD cave map I've found is this one for Ginnie, and it's unbelievably good. I don't know how updated or complete it is (I know it doesn't have "the back"), but it's a ton better than the HITW, Twin Cave, Peacock, JB, Indian, etc maps that are miserable.

Not only that, but the MX maps are GORGEOUS. I bought one and am framing it! I'd love to see something like this done for US caves.

Also, is there a way to add a "restricted" area to CDF where people can post unpublished or uncirculated cave maps? Even if it requires proof of certification for entry or something.

i think there is a version of that map with the back of ginnie on it. probably not ALL of it but a lot

[jlillest]

The best way to get better cave maps is to go out and make them!

Maps are hard to make and hard to keep updated with the current technology. Those of us that make cave maps generally don't make any money off of our work, so for most maps you get what you pay for. Some are super-high quality (ask Jason Richards to look at his Blue Springs mapbook), and most are good enough to represent the cave and show routes through a cave for guidance.

Someday in the not-distant future we'll have a Kinnect type device that can collect map data reliably, allow us to navigate while mapping, and upload to a computer that will give us lots of options on how we want the final product to look. No more paper maps for us, we'll whip out our Occulus Rifts and swim through the cave during our lunch break from work!

I'm sure some of the Mexico maps have been done to generate income, but I don't know that for a fact.

That said, I think the best way to get better maps is to contribute to a project whether it's your own or your on a large team. The more people that survey caves should help with more and better maps all over.

-Jon

[Kelly Jessop]

The best way to get better cave maps is to go out and make them!

Maps have personal meaning to the individual that is doing them. To some the map is almost like an artist at work who doesn't want to reveal the work until it is done,so you likely wouldn't see any updating. To some the map reveals clues about the system,and until they have walled out the cave,they don't want to share the information. Others really feel like they are doing it for personal reasons and don't care to share the map at all. I have always felt that if a person is going to sell a map for profit,then should also provide all the data that produced the maps eg azimuths,distance etc etc. If you are trusting that map to be accurate to plan a dive,then you should have the right to verify accuracy,if you have a "for profit" map.

[apitkin]

Maps have personal meaning to the individual that is doing them. To some the map is almost like an artist at work who doesn't want to reveal the work until it is done,so you likely wouldn't see any updating. To some the map reveals clues about the system,and until they have walled out the cave,they don't want to share the information. Others really feel like they are doing it for personal reasons and don't care to share the map at all. I have always felt that if a person is going to sell a map for profit,then should also provide all the data that produced the maps eg azimuths,distance etc etc. If you are trusting that map to be accurate to plan a dive,then you should have the right to verify accuracy,if you have a "for profit" map.

Kelly,

I agree with the first part of this - making a map is a significant undertaking involving (usually) a lot of work and expense. Most cartographers have put so much work in that they don't want to release anything until they are completely happy with it. And of course there is an artistic element - the purpose of a map is to convey information, but it cannot include everything, so inevitably the cartographer's bias (be it exploration, tourism, conservation, even art itself if you are Eric Hutcheson) infuses the final result.

As to providing the data - I have to disagree. If you buy a map, you are buying the finished product. If you want to verify its accuracy, go survey the cave yourself. After all, the data may be no more accurate than the map. There are other reasons to give you the data, but to "prove" the accuracy of a finished map is not one of them.

Andy

[Kelly Jessop]

Kelly,

.

As to providing the data - I have to disagree. If you buy a map, you are buying the finished product. If you want to verify its accuracy, go survey the cave yourself. After all, the data may be no more accurate than the map. There are other reasons to give you the data, but to "prove" the accuracy of a finished map is not one of them.

Andy

Andy, I understand with what you are saying,and agree in context. I recall two cave maps that we were being sold by individuals a number of years ago,and for all practical purpose they were artistic rendering. They were highly inaccurate,and they exhibited a couple passages as something they weren't, with dimensions that were out of scale. For example a no mount restriction was in the same dimension as a medium sized backmountable tunnel. These maps were sold for significant amount of money,and people used them for navigation,and fortunately no incidents happened. If these individual had to provide the survey data then it would have exposed them as the farce they were. I will give credit to Mike Poucher. He did the survey project at Peacock,which is considered the best map of the cave system,but published his survey data in "Taming of the Slough".

[MikeT]

i think there is a version of that map with the back of ginnie on it. probably not ALL of it but a lot

Hancock map?

[LiteHedded]

Hancock map?

no there is a map with the new ginnie stuff on it

[nkavallar]

It would be fairly easy to post maps in one location and its easy to take the old low res maps and digitally re-draw and enhance them to make them more useful. HOWEVER, you would run into a copyright poo-storm by using other peoples map / data without getting the permission from the people who made them (in some cases it would be near impossible to get to those individuals). The only way I can see it happen is if an organization that own the maps would make them available to free, or for the individuals who put in a lot of hard to make them publicly available.

[Speleo99]

I'm just looking for "Like" button for Jon's post.