Cave Stage Class and Cave related Specialties

[PfcAJ]

what's the problem with that though? Why should a class that is supposed to be how to cave dive, be turned into how to dive properly, and if we get into a cave, then great?

It is an approach that has to be made with the recreational industries involved, but I see no problem with having a diving fundamentals course prior to going into a cave environment. It would save a whole lot of hassle at the cave level of training

Nothing it all. I think the GUE model is the best game in town right now.

Imo, a fundamentals type class should be a prerequisite before entering a cave class.

[nakatomi]

Nothing it all. I think the GUE model is the best game in town right now.

Imo, a fundamentals type class should be a prerequisite before entering a cave class.

I agree on that!
There should be a similar class setup for sidemount, not to start a sidemount discussion here, just saying.

[tbone1004]

Oliver, can just be a fundamentals in technical diving and have the option for twinsets either manifolded or independent, or two tank sidemount. Most of us are picking our instructors based off of how they dive, so as long as you don't lock it down as hard as GUE does, you can give the instructors some leeway on what gear configuration they are allowed to use as long as certain boxes are checked. Minimum 7' hose for single file donation, fully redundant regulator system, etc etc.

[nakatomi]

Oliver, can just be a fundamentals in technical diving and have the option for twinsets either manifolded or independent, or two tank sidemount. Most of us are picking our instructors based off of how they dive, so as long as you don't lock it down as hard as GUE does, you can give the instructors some leeway on what gear configuration they are allowed to use as long as certain boxes are checked. Minimum 7' hose for single file donation, fully redundant regulator system, etc etc.

Yes, I agree 100%.
However what's really nice about the GUE system is the working quality management, that doesn't exist anywhere else.

[tbone1004]

not entirely true, some universities still maintain that level of training, but they are definitely the exception to the rule.

[shellmoundal]

I read all six pages of opinions. All have merit. Just a note of what I have experienced in the past 12 months. An OW Instructor wanted to teach Cavern. He doe with me in OW. I watched his trim and buoyancy skills and suggested that he work on that before going into an overhead environment. The next thing I knew he was diving SM in a cave. No certification of SM or Overhead Environment. This particular OW Instructor with over 20 YEARS EXPERIENCE COULD NOT BE TOLD ANYTHING.
He started his Cavern training with NACD. That instructor refused to take him to another level until he was proficient in his skills. He immediately went to a different instructor and a different agency NSS. The same results as the first agency. He was devastated and angry.
The next thing he did was to find a PADI Instructor that would not only certify him to "Full Cave" but at the same time make him a "Cavern Instructor" and a "SM Instructor". I dove one dive with him since his Certification. I am a safe and careful cave diver. I will never go into any overhead environment with this person. Whoever sold him his card should be removed from an instructor position with PADI. Think about this: You pay for an instructor to teach you safe overhead diving and you end up with an instructor that is not qualified to even be in an overhead environment.
We tend to soak in what the instructor is teaching and demonstrating. No wonder there are so many new cave divers who have no skills or courtesy in a cave. IMO it is not the agency that is important, it is the instructor.
GUE, NACD, NAUI, NSS/CDS/, SSI, TDI, and whatever all have instructors that could and should improve their methods of training.
We all have one thing in common; we all enjoy our sport. It makes me feel good to be diving in a cave and have a team meeting me and giving me the "OK". It's not important what agency they were certified through but what is important is that they want to make sure all is well with me.
To sum it all up I feel that all the agencies need to reevaluate their certification of instructors. The buck starts at the top.

[curtschu]

This thread devolved into a discussion of the merit of the 4 vs 3 step system and Agency bashing. Lets get back to the OP question. Assuming you are a put together, well informed "Cave Diver" and you want to become proficient in the use of DPV, SideMount, or Dry suit. Should there be 1) a prerequisite number of After Cave Diver cave dives? 2) Should there even be a certification card "agency" sponsored certification? I Say no find a good mentor learn to dive that configuration, buy gas and coffee, don't be a douche.

[Kelly Jessop]

I Say no find a good mentor learn to dive that configuration, buy gas and coffee, don't be a douche.

Even that carries some issue from a thread I read here or one of the other tech forums. Where mentoring and learning a new skill was common place years ago,now in this litigious society ,mentoring like this could be considered instruction,and you have no liability protection. We have seen a recent case where someone was trying to just be nice and help someone out,but resulted in a law suit.

[kensuf]

I'm a nobody. But in my opinion there needs to be time between different levels to gain experience.. If it's the traditional "Cavern/Intro/Apprentice/Full" matrix then they need to take some time away from training to get dives in at the break between Intro and Apprentice level.

Some agencies, including one that I'm an instructor for, require experience between "first half of cave" and "second half of cave". There's a lot of merit in that idea. Honestly, many people probably never really need to progress beyond the "first half of cave class" to go and have some fun dives with their buddies anyway.

As for the "second half" of cave class. Stage bottle use should be covered in that class. It doesn't require an extensive amount of extra gear, no one checks a c-card when you show up at Ginnie with a stage bottle, and really anyone that is "full cave" should probably learn how to use a stage bottle correctly during their training. I'm an instructor for an agency that requires a stage bottle for every dive in "the second half of cave class", and while I may think that may be a bit excessive, they do stress a lot of time between the first half and second half of cave class.

If you consider DPV an extension beyond cave class, then I'd argue you need experience between "second half of cave class" and "the third half of cave class". How much experience depends on the individual, some people have plenty of awareness for their environment and surroundings that 100 dives seems excessive, but there are also some people that should probably never learn to use a DPV no matter how many dives they have under their belt.

[OFG-1]

Even that carries some issue from a thread I read here or one of the other tech forums. Where mentoring and learning a new skill was common place years ago,now in this litigious society ,mentoring like this could be considered instruction,and you have no liability protection. We have seen a recent case where someone was trying to just be nice and help someone out,but resulted in a law suit.

The answer of course is to spend every penny as soon as you get it, stay deep in debt, and do not own anything. There is not a decent attorney anywhere that will sue me, the most they could get is custody of my wife, and after 33 years of marriage, I am not sure what a loss that would be. So, you guys want to learn to solo dive with a double hose regulator? I will loan you mine. Want to tie a horsecollar bc to a pair of 104's as a stage bottle, I can show you that. Want your dpv to explode like the one in that dumb movie, get a box of shotgun shells, and come and see me. We can mount a big Ginsu knife to your dpv as a "buddy motivator" for those guys that continually start and stop, start and stop, start and stop, in front of you.