Cave Stage Class and Cave related Specialties

[Kelly Jessop]

Obviously thoughts have changed in regards to Sidemounting as you now have cavern, intor, basic divers taking the course in sidemount configuration.

Sidemount class as a distinctive specialty still exists,and is an advanced level of cave diving. You said a key word,sidemount configuration. The people who enter basic/intro,and into full cave are learning sidemount configuration,or similar to backmount diving rules,but with the tanks on the side. The sidemount course prepares you for entering real sidemount situations such as gear removal,team concepts,communication in zero viz,restrictions etc etc.

[victorzamora]

What does a stage class teach you beyond what you did in full cave?

So, this is what I was told in my Intro class about diving thirds before Apprentice. Apprentice doesn't really certify you to anything beyond Intro except for thirds of doubles.....so twice the penetration. So you're limited to sixths of doubles in Intro not because the skills are different, but because you don't have the experience to handle failures that far back in a cave.

Extrapolating that out, a stage can get you 50% farther back in the cave (assuming your mains are AL80s) and part of stage training is your instructor signing off that you're safe that much farther back. Skills that are obviously covered are sharing gas when using stages (which of the 3 regs do you donate) and rigging/donning/doffing tanks.

As far as what my total opinion is on "Cave Specialty" classes....I'm so torn. On the one hand, you don't really need any "specialties" to dive (except for DPV Cave in some cave systems). On the other hand, I'm sure there's a LOT of knowledge that could be transferred quickly by taking the class. I feel like the classes could almost be skipped by approaching the dives of additional complexity slowly and cautiously and building that experience up over time. So, I think my position is that I see no need in actually taking the classes as long as you can pace yourself and build experience gradually....but I agree that there's HUGE benefits from taking those classes.

[tbone1004]

so I guess the question becomes where and why do you draw the line with cave penetration? If you're diving HP100's to thirds they'll get you 66cf back. So stage pushes you that much farther back and gets you an extra 25cf, so call it 90cf of penetration with HP100's to thirds and an al80 stage.

If instead you just decide you want to go back there, you buy a set of 104's *see how this is pointed at you buddy ", and now you have just over 90cf of penetration on thirds of the 104, so you can get farther back in a set of 104's than you can in hp100's and an al80, at least in theory.

That is the problem with the theory of having stuff happen due to penetration limits, same with sixths because you get fed up with the sixth on 100's and you jump to 112's where sixths get you about as far as thirds do on 100's, so there has to be a line drawn, and I think the GUE/NAUI standard of the three courses is that much better than the four step approach.

[victorzamora]

so I guess the question becomes where and why do you draw the line with cave penetration? If you're diving HP100's to thirds they'll get you 66cf back. So stage pushes you that much farther back and gets you an extra 25cf, so call it 90cf of penetration with HP100's to thirds and an al80 stage.

If instead you just decide you want to go back there, you buy a set of 104's *see how this is pointed at you buddy ", and now you have just over 90cf of penetration on thirds of the 104, so you can get farther back in a set of 104's than you can in hp100's and an al80, at least in theory.

That is the problem with the theory of having stuff happen due to penetration limits, same with sixths because you get fed up with the sixth on 100's and you jump to 112's where sixths get you about as far as thirds do on 100's, so there has to be a line drawn, and I think the GUE/NAUI standard of the three courses is that much better than the four step approach.

Tom, you're right, it's certainly a little goofy/wonky there and clearly not clear-cut. One reason I bought my 104s (thinking they were 108s) was because they gave me the gas of a stage without carrying another stage. Total gas on my HP100s+AL80 is 277ft3. Total gas on just my 104s is 283ft3....slightly more.

One difference, in my opinion, is that I don't have to worry about returning to where I dropped my stage (true in caves or OW) and I don't have to worry about picking up a stage and the related hassles when things are going poorly and I'm stressed. I think that adding a stage certainly adds some stress in the donning/doffing procedures as well as the planning procedures. I say "planning" because when I'm diving my 104s I've always got my stage with me (gas-wise)....and it doesn't require any considerations that my HP100s would.

The other difference (and this is the bigger one) is that carrying bigger tanks gets you twice as far back, but it also gives you twice the reserve gas. So, on 100s on thirds you get 66ft3 of penetration....but you only get 133ft3 of reserves. On sixths of 104s you get 47ft3 of penetration (close) but you have over 230ft3 of reserve gas to un-kill yourself. That's why I think the line gets drawn there, and clearly. You get a ton of penetration on the bigger tanks, but you also have more reserve gas. With stages, your reserve gas is all attached and you don't have to stop and don tanks and worry about procedures and what reg to donate from and whatnot.

[bamafan]

I agree about the way NAUI standards are set. Do a few more dives and train them for a basic cave dive. 1/3rds and 1 navigational decision with no deco is a very basic dive. I feel sorry for people trying to find someone to dive 6ths with them. Heck 1/3 rds and 1 navigational decision opens up alot more cave and dive buddies. It is not technically violating the cds / nacd to tie a reel on the gold line and then swim some other line as long as you don't tie it in to the other line. Which is more dangerous? Doing a simple jump or swimming through passage with 2 seperate lines. I personally don't agree with 1/6 ths and no navigational decisions.

[nakatomi]

I personally don't agree with 1/6 ths and no navigational decisions.

That's how I feel.
Being Intro to Cave certified is way too limiting. I've seen people break/extend their limits by solo diving at the intro level (because they can't find buddies), using stages (to get more out of their sixths) etc., which is all breaking the rules of course.

My ideal set of limits for Cave 1 / Intro would be (in my opinion):
- Thirds +300 reserve
- One stage tank may be used as a safety/reserve/buddy tank as long as it contains the same mix as the back gas and the total amount of gas used is not extended (Thirds +300 of the BACKGAS)
- One navigational decision (T, jump), not counting gold line T's
- No solo diving
- 120' max depth
- Max. decompression of 5 minutes on O2 (only if AN/DP certified, no decompression on O2 if not AN/DP)

This would be a class pretty much in line with Apprentice and NAUI cave 1.

To answer the original question. Based on my own experiences Victor, using stages (and planning with them) properly, involves a lot of know-how and experience. While I feel that the basics should be taught in a Full Cave class, the current timeframe (4 days for Apprentice and Full Cave) may just be too limited for that. So the specialty class does serve a purpose.

[RN]

There's a lot more to a stage class than just extending your penetration. A proper stage class should discuss cave conservation and where it is appropriate to place the stage cylinder, various methods of gas management with the addition of a stage cylinder, rigging methods, emergency situations, etc. Sure, going from a set of 95s to a set of 120s is like adding a stage cylinder as far as volume is concerned but typically you will be leaving that stage cylinder somewhere along the passage so you will not have all of your gas reserves on you if a low gas situation occurs whereas with the set of 120s all the gas is on you.

As far as the sidemount specialty, like Kelly mentioned, there is a difference between diving sidemount configuration and diving in sidemount restrictions so the specialty definitely deserves some consideration and shouldn't be diminished just because a lot more divers are diving in sidemount.

[RN]

So, this is what I was told in my Intro class about diving thirds before Apprentice. Apprentice doesn't really certify you to anything beyond Intro except for thirds of doubles.....so twice the penetration. So you're limited to sixths of doubles in Intro not because the skills are different, but because you don't have the experience to handle failures that far back in a cave.

That's not the only difference between Apprentice and Intro. In many agencies Apprentice also trains you to plan and execute dives with simple navigation, usually interpreted as one jump or T. There should also be a stronger emphasis on situational awareness at this point rather than skills.

[victorzamora]

That's not the only difference between Apprentice and Intro. In many agencies Apprentice also trains you to plan and execute dives with simple navigation, usually interpreted as one jump or T. There should also be a stronger emphasis on situational awareness at this point rather than skills.

Of course, I was simplifying the differences to make a point.....clearly not very well. My point was that even with more penetration gas on sixths of big tanks vs thirds of small tanks is due to the reserve gas differences. The main goal of the next level of training is to make sure you can handle the basics well enough to have less reserve gas. By that same token, stage training has few additional "skills" that can't be learned through practice, mentorship, or asking others.

A proper stage class should discuss cave conservation all conscientious divers should be keeping this in mind at all times and where it is appropriate to place the stage cylinder , various methods of gas management with the addition of a stage cylinder can be learned through asking others, mentorship, or experience, rigging methods this can easily be learned by piddling in a pool or asking around, emergency situations can be either treated all as solo dives or you can ask, etc.

My point is that a proper stage class could do a lot of good, but it's nothing that can't be learned independently in a safe way.

[fishinmaniac]

A stage course is a joke IMO, if you can't figure how to rig and carry a stage by watching others and asking questions then you really got taken in your cave training.