Cave Stage Class and Cave related Specialties

[dabigcattt]

Hey All,

Back when I was certified there was a 50 Dive after your full cave class in order to take Cave Specialties, ie sidemounting at the time, DPV, Stage and whatever else they may have offered.

Obviously thoughts have changed in regards to Sidemounting as you now have cavern, intor, basic divers taking the course in sidemount configuration.

In regards to the other specialties what are your thoughts? Should the 50 dive rule be enforced or should you be able to head right into those classes after completing your full cave class?

My opinion is you should NOT take another class after your full cave until you have some experience under your belt. Obviously some are ready after 6 while others may need the full 50 to get that experience.

I would love to hear from some of the more experienced members especially the instructors on how they handle this with their students.

Thanks,

Craig

[Sludge]

My instructor admonished me to not touch a scooter in a cave until after I got my Abe Davis. And he meant it.

[dabigcattt]

My instructor admonished me to not touch a scooter in a cave until after I got my Abe Davis. And he meant it.

Any thoughts on stage class?

[Sludge]

Any thoughts on stage class?

That was part of his Full Cave course. Go figure.

[rddvet]

Any thoughts on stage class?

I think you're going to get alot of different answers. Naui teaches stages as part of full cave and I actually think it's a good idea, but I am very partial to the NAUI/IANTD/GUE system as opposed to the cavern, intro, apprentice, and full aspect.

My reasoning is particular to me and there are easily arguments on both sides of the coin. The NAUI system allowed me to dive 1/3s and make jumps at cave1. My personality is that I'm not in a hurry to speed through certs. By giving me the ability to do more diving with the cave1 cert, I was able to focus on slowly gaining my skills. I think if I was forced to dive 1/6ths I would have rushed my training. By the time I got to cave2 I had a good basis of extended dives, and making decisions on navigation and my comfort level. By the time I got to cave2 I was ready to add stages to the mix and had a strong basis to do so.

The flip side of the coin is a guy I know who doesn't dive anymore. As soon as he was able to dive 1/3s he looked at it as a license to push past the limits of his cert and do bigger dives than his cert allowed.

So basically I think you're going to get 10 different answers because it really depends on the mentality of the person taking the classes.

[tbone1004]

I think the stage classes are very different now than what they used to be. With many divers diving double 130's and equivalent sized tanks, cave filled 104's etc, they are going as far as many divers back in the day were going with lp tanks filled to their actual working pressures. I was stage certified at the same time as when I went through the rest of cave training but had a very different training background than 98% of the people go head down there. The cave classes for me were "learn how to dive in a cave" not "break your bad diving habits, then teach you how to dive period, then teach you how to dive in a cave", so the experience was very different due to me previous training.

For me I would rather dive with my 120's and a stage than with cave filled 104's or 108's, I would much rather dive with my 72's and a stage than my 120's for some diving. Most divers don't think that way because stages are scary and more complex or they don't have the certification or whatever.

I don't like requirements to get the next level of certification because it is very dependent on the diver. I don't think there should be any certifications outside of "nitrox diver", "trimix diver", "cave diver", "ccr diver", and corresponding levels of asst and instructor certs to match. The divers at the advanced levels need to be able to hold themselves back because of their experience and their comfort level not because of a card. Unfortunately the industry is so far beyond that it's not even funny. I had to take a 3 year hiatus from cave diving, I'm still certified to do basically whatever I want in a cave, but the first pair of dives back were in Cow as shakedown dives and the 15 dives following that were all very basic level cave dives just to make sure I wasn't pushing limits. Now I'm comfortable enough with myself to go back and start doing some more complex diving, but if I go any more than 6-8 weeks between cave trips I want to have a proper shakedown dive before I go off and do anything serious. A lot of divers aren't like that and those tend to be the ones that needed to take all 4 levels of cave training at different intervals so their instructors could go back and break all sorts of bad habits both mental ones and skill level ones, and unfortunately despite the training few ever really "get it".

As far as scooter diving I think it also depends on the how and why you need them. My first trip to JB and Ginnie I can see how having even a Tekna just to ease the way back and then coast out would be a nice way to see that cave, and using scooters to ease your entry into the cave and then coast out and enjoy it is a very different animal than taking a Magnus back there to see how far back you can get. Too many variables to really be able to nail it down, and with the PC nature of our society these days the rules can't get more strict on who gets certified and who doesn't because that translates to $$ back to the training agencies and manufacturers. Necessary evils unfortunately.

[patpicos]

What does a stage class teach you beyond what you did in full cave?
My full cave class dives were pretty much backgas, 1 stagr , and deco gas..that was the standard kit.

Do I need an extra course to handle 2 stages?

I'm of the belief there are too many courses out there and it becomes a pokemon card collecting habit rather than anything else...ohh and feed the agencies with increased number of certs granted

[victorzamora]

What does a stage class teach you beyond what you did in full cave?

So, this is what I was told in my Intro class about diving thirds before Apprentice. Apprentice doesn't really certify you to anything beyond Intro except for thirds of doubles.....so twice the penetration. So you're limited to sixths of doubles in Intro not because the skills are different, but because you don't have the experience to handle failures that far back in a cave.

Extrapolating that out, a stage can get you 50% farther back in the cave (assuming your mains are AL80s) and part of stage training is your instructor signing off that you're safe that much farther back. Skills that are obviously covered are sharing gas when using stages (which of the 3 regs do you donate) and rigging/donning/doffing tanks.

As far as what my total opinion is on "Cave Specialty" classes....I'm so torn. On the one hand, you don't really need any "specialties" to dive (except for DPV Cave in some cave systems). On the other hand, I'm sure there's a LOT of knowledge that could be transferred quickly by taking the class. I feel like the classes could almost be skipped by approaching the dives of additional complexity slowly and cautiously and building that experience up over time. So, I think my position is that I see no need in actually taking the classes as long as you can pace yourself and build experience gradually....but I agree that there's HUGE benefits from taking those classes.

[RN]

So, this is what I was told in my Intro class about diving thirds before Apprentice. Apprentice doesn't really certify you to anything beyond Intro except for thirds of doubles.....so twice the penetration. So you're limited to sixths of doubles in Intro not because the skills are different, but because you don't have the experience to handle failures that far back in a cave.

That's not the only difference between Apprentice and Intro. In many agencies Apprentice also trains you to plan and execute dives with simple navigation, usually interpreted as one jump or T. There should also be a stronger emphasis on situational awareness at this point rather than skills.

[victorzamora]

That's not the only difference between Apprentice and Intro. In many agencies Apprentice also trains you to plan and execute dives with simple navigation, usually interpreted as one jump or T. There should also be a stronger emphasis on situational awareness at this point rather than skills.

Of course, I was simplifying the differences to make a point.....clearly not very well. My point was that even with more penetration gas on sixths of big tanks vs thirds of small tanks is due to the reserve gas differences. The main goal of the next level of training is to make sure you can handle the basics well enough to have less reserve gas. By that same token, stage training has few additional "skills" that can't be learned through practice, mentorship, or asking others.

A proper stage class should discuss cave conservation all conscientious divers should be keeping this in mind at all times and where it is appropriate to place the stage cylinder , various methods of gas management with the addition of a stage cylinder can be learned through asking others, mentorship, or experience, rigging methods this can easily be learned by piddling in a pool or asking around, emergency situations can be either treated all as solo dives or you can ask, etc.

My point is that a proper stage class could do a lot of good, but it's nothing that can't be learned independently in a safe way.