Cave Stage Class and Cave related Specialties

[dabigcattt]

Hey All,

Back when I was certified there was a 50 Dive after your full cave class in order to take Cave Specialties, ie sidemounting at the time, DPV, Stage and whatever else they may have offered.

Obviously thoughts have changed in regards to Sidemounting as you now have cavern, intor, basic divers taking the course in sidemount configuration.

In regards to the other specialties what are your thoughts? Should the 50 dive rule be enforced or should you be able to head right into those classes after completing your full cave class?

My opinion is you should NOT take another class after your full cave until you have some experience under your belt. Obviously some are ready after 6 while others may need the full 50 to get that experience.

I would love to hear from some of the more experienced members especially the instructors on how they handle this with their students.

Thanks,

Craig

[Sludge]

My instructor admonished me to not touch a scooter in a cave until after I got my Abe Davis. And he meant it.

[dabigcattt]

My instructor admonished me to not touch a scooter in a cave until after I got my Abe Davis. And he meant it.

Any thoughts on stage class?

[tbone1004]

I think the stage classes are very different now than what they used to be. With many divers diving double 130's and equivalent sized tanks, cave filled 104's etc, they are going as far as many divers back in the day were going with lp tanks filled to their actual working pressures. I was stage certified at the same time as when I went through the rest of cave training but had a very different training background than 98% of the people go head down there. The cave classes for me were "learn how to dive in a cave" not "break your bad diving habits, then teach you how to dive period, then teach you how to dive in a cave", so the experience was very different due to me previous training.

For me I would rather dive with my 120's and a stage than with cave filled 104's or 108's, I would much rather dive with my 72's and a stage than my 120's for some diving. Most divers don't think that way because stages are scary and more complex or they don't have the certification or whatever.

I don't like requirements to get the next level of certification because it is very dependent on the diver. I don't think there should be any certifications outside of "nitrox diver", "trimix diver", "cave diver", "ccr diver", and corresponding levels of asst and instructor certs to match. The divers at the advanced levels need to be able to hold themselves back because of their experience and their comfort level not because of a card. Unfortunately the industry is so far beyond that it's not even funny. I had to take a 3 year hiatus from cave diving, I'm still certified to do basically whatever I want in a cave, but the first pair of dives back were in Cow as shakedown dives and the 15 dives following that were all very basic level cave dives just to make sure I wasn't pushing limits. Now I'm comfortable enough with myself to go back and start doing some more complex diving, but if I go any more than 6-8 weeks between cave trips I want to have a proper shakedown dive before I go off and do anything serious. A lot of divers aren't like that and those tend to be the ones that needed to take all 4 levels of cave training at different intervals so their instructors could go back and break all sorts of bad habits both mental ones and skill level ones, and unfortunately despite the training few ever really "get it".

As far as scooter diving I think it also depends on the how and why you need them. My first trip to JB and Ginnie I can see how having even a Tekna just to ease the way back and then coast out would be a nice way to see that cave, and using scooters to ease your entry into the cave and then coast out and enjoy it is a very different animal than taking a Magnus back there to see how far back you can get. Too many variables to really be able to nail it down, and with the PC nature of our society these days the rules can't get more strict on who gets certified and who doesn't because that translates to $$ back to the training agencies and manufacturers. Necessary evils unfortunately.

[Sludge]

Any thoughts on stage class?

That was part of his Full Cave course. Go figure.

[patpicos]

What does a stage class teach you beyond what you did in full cave?
My full cave class dives were pretty much backgas, 1 stagr , and deco gas..that was the standard kit.

Do I need an extra course to handle 2 stages?

I'm of the belief there are too many courses out there and it becomes a pokemon card collecting habit rather than anything else...ohh and feed the agencies with increased number of certs granted

[rddvet]

Any thoughts on stage class?

I think you're going to get alot of different answers. Naui teaches stages as part of full cave and I actually think it's a good idea, but I am very partial to the NAUI/IANTD/GUE system as opposed to the cavern, intro, apprentice, and full aspect.

My reasoning is particular to me and there are easily arguments on both sides of the coin. The NAUI system allowed me to dive 1/3s and make jumps at cave1. My personality is that I'm not in a hurry to speed through certs. By giving me the ability to do more diving with the cave1 cert, I was able to focus on slowly gaining my skills. I think if I was forced to dive 1/6ths I would have rushed my training. By the time I got to cave2 I had a good basis of extended dives, and making decisions on navigation and my comfort level. By the time I got to cave2 I was ready to add stages to the mix and had a strong basis to do so.

The flip side of the coin is a guy I know who doesn't dive anymore. As soon as he was able to dive 1/3s he looked at it as a license to push past the limits of his cert and do bigger dives than his cert allowed.

So basically I think you're going to get 10 different answers because it really depends on the mentality of the person taking the classes.

[Mark Vlahos]

After getting my cave card I made a decision to dive very conservatively for a while. It was familiar systems only. Gas planning well short of thirds. Mainline only. Eventually I got off the main line, took gas closer to thirds, and left the mainline. I was diving backmount 130's because the tanks fit my body size very well.

As a relatively new cave diver my range was limited by gas, and I was OK with that. To extend my range I concentrated on using better technique, and increasing my comfort level in the cave. Within 75 dives my range was almost double what it was when I started. I took a stage bottle class and found it to be worthwhile, but the experience gained before the class was more worthwhile.

It is my position that one should first get proficient at the basics, then take small steps. There is plenty to see in most systems within the reaches of just back gas and kicking. I find it funny when talking to some other divers that they talk about the far reaches of the Devil's system at Ginnie, but have very little knowledge of what lies this side of the Maple Leaf.

Mark Vlahos

[PfcAJ]

Stage diving was part of my GUE c2 class, but I'm generally a fan of getting good at diving just backgas before you start doing stage dives. Once you're good at stage dives and have kinda hit the limit of where you can get swimming ~2 stages, then a DPV is a worthwhile thing to consider.

# of dives doesn't matter to me much. There are guys who have good stills and the upstairs capability at 50 dives that some folks don't have with 350 dives. The upstairs capability is the hardest thing to judge, though.

[LiteHedded]

it should be covered in a full cave class IMO. otherwise is just isn't 'full' cave
it was covered in mine but i took a iantd technical cave course. i dont think their basic full cave class covers it but it's been so long now i dont really remember