Sa Gleda - CLOSED

[gianaameri]

I sense the urgency and the passion with which you are stating the case.

As this forum is predominantly accessed by Americans (aka mostly people that only speak one language) do you think there would be an advantage to posting an English translated version in order that responses might be more forth coming?

Curious, will responses written in English be as impactful?

Mallorca is quite an international location with a large airport and ports and widely visited by Americans and other English speaking persons from all over the world. 50% of the residents are foreigners (off the top of my head, I reserve to change/check the figures), largely British and Germans.

Mallorca receives very large EU subsidies and it uses them to develop its infrastructure (airports and roads...), and it does a very good job with this money (it is well organised and easily accessible with direct flights from all over the world).

I suspect it would not be in the interest of the Gobierno Balear to ignore entirely the opinion of Americans, Germans, British, Italians... whichever language they send their opinion in.

Of the whole PG1 document, the relevant parts in respect of access to the caves is pages 58 and 59.

Of those two pages, the key part is section "f."

Basically, the Gobierno Balear wrote a massive document, but in that document it omitted to say, such that the public could have a say, as part of a proper Public Consultation, it omitted to say what the requirements actually are for accessing these caves.

Instead, it gave itself, without public oversight or consultation, the right to determine at a later date what these requirements will be.

The rough translation of clause f. is

"f ) Access to the caves for speleological activities and scientific research is a licensable activity. By means of a resolution by the competent general management of protected areas Natura 2000 network, it shall be decided the periods of temporary access, the number of people per group and day and the required eligibility, this in order to prevent visits which may have a negative impact on the habitats and the species of Community interest condition, all without prejudice to the permission of the owners of the land through which it must pass to access at the entrance of the cave. "

The Federacion Balear de Espeleologia has thus far taken control of these caves granting access to divers without cave diving training and valid insurance with the President of the Federacion Balear de Espeleologia being one such untrained cave diver accessing these caves.

So, it is a bit of a mess and because there is a Public Consultation this is the opportunity to get it right, for Mallorca, and all those other autonomic regions of Spain, and other regions of Spain and Europe who will equally have to follow suit come up with a formal Management Plan to comply with the EU wide Directives to protect these caves.

Democratic participation can help.

My opinion is that divers should access these caves provided they have Full Cave training (completed certification prior to accessing the caves) and valid insurance, and this is my only suggestion to them (if they can't get that, they just can't get it).

The more sensible and honest suggestions from individual cavers and cave organizations reach the Gobierno Balear, the less likely that they will (or can) get it too wrong.

[FredMgt]

This video was posted on YouTube by the Balearic Caving Federation.
Scroll to 3'20, and you will realise how much these people are concerned by cave protection ...
http://youtu.be/cyOu089ZO-c

[gianaameri]

This video was posted on YouTube by the Balearic Caving Federation.
Scroll to 3'20, and you will realise how much these people are concerned by cave protection ...
http://youtu.be/cyOu089ZO-c

I think that was done on purpose for the TV program (re-posted on youtube) to show the viewer (normally not cave trained) the risks of cave diving (i.e. silting).

Do not come to the conclusion that all Mallorquin are bad divers and unconcerned about cave conservation and safety.

By far the vast majority are incredibly good divers and explorers (not to say that their skills could not be improved, we can always get better). Some produce invaluable piece of true scientific research (and these are less than the fingers in one hand).

A very small minority (1 maybe 2, and a friend or two) who unfortunately have taken control of the caves are to say the least very ignorant of modern cave diving techniques and safety - ignorant of "best practice." Ignorant of their own national and local legislation and regulations. They put the cheapest way to do things ahead of safety, which means they do not want to pay for training (yet they expect me and other visitors and fellow Mallorquin divers whom they view as rivals to comply with their draconian rules).

They break their own rules which they expect other Mallorquin as well as us to obey without discussion.

Then, if a group of divers (Mallorquin) goes diving what they believe is THEIR own personal caves, they make formal criminal reports to SEPRONA - the Guardia Civil - against fellow Mallorquins.

It is the case of these poor divers who went breath-hold diving in a cave from the sea - BUT that happened to be the playground of the President of the Federacion Balear de Espeleologia.

So, what did he do?

He dives without cave training and valid insurance and goes and reports to the police that these poor people from the sea breath-holding diving had broken the law for entering his cave - the Cova des Ases.

---- Mensaje original ----
Asunto: DENUNCIA actividad en la Cova des Ases
Fecha de envÃ#o: 17/09/2014 15:02
De: Federació Balear Espeleologia <federaciobalear@gmail.com>
Para:
CC:
En referencia a este articulo publicado por APNEA MALLORCA
http://www.apneamallorca.com/2014/09...l#comment-form
en donde se describe la realizacion de una actividad de este club deportivo en la cova des ases
La Cova des Ases es una cueva protegida a nivel de la EU cono LIC ( lugar de Importancia Comunitaria) ES5310043 y por ello cualquier visita debe contar con la preceptiva autorización de la Conselleria de Medi Ambient y aun más para la realización de la actividad que habéis desarrollado que implica un claro riesgo tanto para la seguridad de las personas como para la integridad de los espeleotemas y fauna que alberga la cueva.
Por todo ello esta Federacion Balear de Espeleologia y en el marco del proyecto que lleva a cabo con la Fundación Biodiversidad del Ministerio de Medio Ambiente y con la Dirección de Medi Natural de la Conselleria de Medi Ambient del Govern Balear sobre protección y conservación de las cuevas LIC de Baleares presentará la correspondiente denuncia para que se averigüe y proceda en su caso si esta actividad estaba debidamente autorizada.
No queremos decir con ello que no se puedan visitar las cavidades protegidas como LIC de Baleares sino que cualquier clase de visita debe contar con su preceptiva autorización y de esta manera establecer las pautas poder garantizar la conservación de los frágiles ecosistemas que albergan y que el impacto de la actividad sea el mÃ#nimo posible
Lista cavidades LIC http://cuevasprotegidas.federaciobal.../cavidades.php
Guiem Mulet
Presidente de la FBE

[Jack Hammer]

So were the flutter kicking split fin parts intentional too?

[gianaameri]

So were the flutter kicking split fin parts intentional too?

Different people use different equipment and techniques. Just because you were taught the modified frog kick and to use a stiff fin (I was and that is what I use) does not necessarily mean it is the only and right way to do it.

There are a lot of divers in Europe who don't use stiff fins and the modified frog kick and it works for them.

That specific portion of the video I am pretty confident they were both deliberately kicking to silt the cave.

[Jack Hammer]

That specific portion of the video I am pretty confident they were both deliberately kicking to silt the cave.

I thought the part you referenced appeared intentional, regardless I'll take your word for it. I was referring to a whole bunch of other parts of the video.

[gianaameri]

I thought the part you referenced appeared intentional, regardless I'll take your word for it. I was referring to a whole bunch of other parts of the video.

I only looked at that exact portion because that is what was brought up as an example of poor diving/skills.

If you have another exact portion you think is indicatory of poor skills/behavior, I'll look at it.

Some of the best cave divers in Europe are the anti-thesis in looks and style from the norm in North and Central America, yet they achieve a lot, and there is a lot to learn form them.

It is just a matter of understanding why they do what they do and use what they use.

Split/soft fins, I have yet to understand and try for caving, but they do actually work in practice and have dived with many cave divers in Europe using them.

[gianaameri]

Nice picture from Toni Cirer of Grup Nort de Mallorca from yesterday's diving activities in EU protected cave Cova de Pas de Vallgornera (LIC Núm: ES5310049 Xarxa Natura 2000 D.92/43/CEE):

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...7538712&type=1

Thank-you Toni for sharing your beautiful pictures of these caves with us. You have got talent!

I have sent yesterday in to to the Gobierno Balear a few more comments, mainly the application of a number of national laws requiring for scientific diving higher levels of insurance and diving skills than for recreational diving.

My main purpose is to try get at least through that for cave diving in these beautiful EU protected caves one should at least do so after full cave training and with proper and valid insurance, and not like the President of the Federacion Balear de Espeleologia and some of his friends do (no formal cave diving training), breaching common sense, best practice, and local and national laws and regulation.

My further comments:

6. Que en el caso de la práctica del buceo cientÃ#fico, el seguro de accidentes y de responsabilidad civil, tanto del equipo cientÃ#fico como del personal auxiliar, deberá cubrir, además, operaciones de rescate hasta un valor de quince millones (15.000.000) de pesetas, o noventa mil ciento cincuenta y un (90.151 euros) y que el el organismo competente de la Comunidad Autónoma ANTES de autorizar la actividad verifica el cumplimento de este requisito.

7. Que en el caso de la práctica del buceo cientÃ#fico en cueva LIC donde la distancia de la superficie/entrada es mayor de 55 metros, los componentes del equipo cientÃ#fico podrán ser autorizados para la realización de inmersiones superiors a 55 metros, siempre que se sometan voluntariamente a las normas establecidas para el buceo profesional.

8. Que en el caso de la práctica del buceo cientÃ#fico en cueva LIC, el organismo competente de la Comunidad Autónoma debe informar SEPRONA y SEPRONA debe verificar antes de el inicio de las actividades autorizadas que el equipo cientifico y el personal auxiliar tienen a. autorizacion de el organismo competente de la Comunidad Autónoma, b. titulacion de espeleobuceo de el maximo nivel (cual “Full Cave”) y c. seguro de acidente y responsabilidad civil efectivamente valido por las actividades autorizadas.

9. Que en el caso de la práctica del buceo cientÃ#fico en cueva LIC, que se cumple el ORDEN de 20 julio 2000 de el Ministerio de Fomento.

The relevant law: https://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2000/08/...8240-28240.pdf

Please send in to the Gobierno Balear your honest and sincere opinion as to what best practice should be to protect these beautiful caves. I am focusing with my comments on the legislative aspects because some local idiot is only what they will understand (common sense is beyond their reach).

[gianaameri]

So were the flutter kicking split fin parts intentional too?

I had the time to watch the whole video.

Also, I have the benefit to have dived with some of the divers seen on the video and others who use soft/split fins and the flutter kick.

You can see as well in the video that at some point they change kick. It is no longer flutter, but it is a strange/different kick with one fin horizontal and the other at an angle and both knees bent.

What I have observed is that the flutter kick if used away from the bottom or silty area is fine (it works). Then, if it is modified in the restriction silty area is also fine (but in my opinion not as good as the modified frog-kick with rigid fins).

Lots of people, top cave instructors included, use soft/split fins and flutter kick in Europe.

Check this video out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bHs...&feature=share

[gianaameri]

For those interested in reading the Draft Management Plan and send their comments in to the Gobierno Balear to help them determine the requisites for access to thes caves (i.e. only the "Open Water" President of the FBE and his friends, or all qualified divers with Full Cave and valid Cave Dive Insurance, or only "scientific" expeditions whatever that means...) - to make matters more difficult the Gobierno Balear has moved the link and it directs you now to participate to a different Management Plan for Menorca, rather than the caves we are talking about here in Mallorca.

The new correct direct link to view the Management Plan for Mallorca (i.e. Sa Gleda, Vallgornera...) is http://xarxanatura.es/plans-de-gestio/ .

If you do nothing, and do not contribute, it will be business as usual.

The "Open Water" President of the FBE and his friends can do what they want, and anybody he does not like (including fellow Mallorquins) will be asked to submit to his draconian rules which he does not have to follow, and pay his guides to access caves (if and when they feel like it and are available).

The "guides" do not hold Professional guide qualifications (other than for one who is a cave instructor and gladly will charge you for his services through the FBE) and do not have professional "civil liability" insurance (meaning at best if they have valid insurance to cover third-party liability the insured limit will be very little... and they are largely penniless and would not be worth your pursuing a claim either against them or the "Open Water" President of the FBE or the FBE... dissenting members of the FBE like me are not personally liable, but those who do not dissent and agree/participate to these policies are).

By all means, I know all these people and they are very nice guys (I get the occasional email reminder to "mind my own business" from some).

I hear a group of Polish divers is being allowed to visit Cova de Pas de Vallgornera for money and with the President's guides of choice (don't forget to ask for a VAT Invoice which you will not get).

I have asked for the Statute and the Accounts (from 2008 to date) from the Federacion Balear de Espeleologia, but both father and son (that is President and Vice-President) have refused to date to provide them (despite my being a member of the FBE).

The civil liability insurance of the organization (in case some paying tourist gets hurt slipping in the dry section of the cave, or is lost by the "expert" local guides) - the actual Insurance Policy/Certificate - is nowhere to be found (well, they agreed to provide it to me, but they don't have it...).

This is Spain (all normal for the Gobierno Balear).

Please participate, if you can, and ask fellow cave divers to do the same!

DO NOT click on the link "Participa" insofar that will throw you off into Menorca land (different island, different Management Plan), but email your comments to mcarbonell@dgmambie.caib.es and participacio@xarxanatura.es and marcialbardolet@gmail.com .

DO ASK for confirmation by return email that your comments/suggestions have been received and will be given due consideration (or they will just hit the delete button or ignore them altogether).