Trashing the caves, do you not feel any shame?

[jj1987]

It would be interesting to compare the damage in cave systems that don't permit scootering with those that do.

I'd say Indian and Eagles Nest are more pristine than Cow, and they allow scootering. (Sarcasm, just attempting to point out that eliminating entry level training/divers would likely make more of a change)

[OFG-1]

I'd say Indian and Eagles Nest are more pristine than Cow, and they allow scootering. (Sarcasm, just attempting to point out that eliminating entry level training/divers would likely make more of a change)

Yes, and getting rid of tourists in Florida would make the traffic better. (Sarcasm, just attempting to point out that you have as much chance of getting rid of entry level/training divers as you do of shoving a greased BB up a wildcats ass)

[T. Bix]

OFG.... Damn your graphic analogies!!! LOL

[lv2dive]

And we wonder why landowners are reluctant to allow access to their caves?

[nakatomi]

We swam Twin Caves today and about 50' from the first fissure, coming in, there is the exact same shape scooter ditch and prop mark as in Jackson Blue.

[Gene Powell]

Don't get me wrong. I agree with everyone else concerning diver damage, and think we have a responsibility to police our own. That being said, I have to wonder how many of these posters are really concerned for the caves, and springs. When you consider the lack of responses to the very serious threats that Tflaris so often shares with this board, it makes me think people really just like bashing other divers in an attempt to make themselves look good. It's kinda like worrying about a dent in your bumper when you have a rod knocking in your engine! I hope I'm wrong on this, but even if I am, it means we are rather dysfunctional when it comes to protecting our caves.
"Flame On".

[nakatomi]

When you consider the lack of responses to the very serious threats that Tflaris so often shares with this board, it makes me think people really just like bashing other divers in an attempt to make themselves look good. It's kinda like worrying about a dent in your bumper when you have a rod knocking in your engine! I hope I'm wrong on this, but even if I am, it means we are rather dysfunctional when it comes to protecting our caves.
"Flame On".

As single individuals, we are obviously very limited as to the degree of change and awareness we can help promote. So I agree about us being dysfunctional in the big picture.
Regarding the other part of your post, pointing the finger at people to make oneself look good, really?
Any diver that has been trained and performs more or less to the standards of a major agency, will be able to dive these areas of the cave without causing anything remotely resembling this damage.
As to my personal motives? Well, I have to admit that I am being egoistical. I prefer to look at silt and clay banks, not the reminders of the mishaps of other people.

[PfcAJ]

I don't think caring about one aspect of cave conservation is any better or more noble than another aspect.

If water quality is your thing and you feel like you can make an impact in public awareness and policy, great! If you think you can make a difference in education to help minimize cave damage from divers, that's cool too! Both are important.

[Kelly Jessop]

And we wonder why landowners are reluctant to allow access to their caves?

You are right. I have reopened several cave systems that were closed,and presently working on a slow methodical process of another. The owner has a lot of concern because of how delicate the system is,and the ability to handle traffic. That presents a problem because the divers will have to be very squared away,but often in our opinion we are all that way. Self evaluation,and honesty is critical at this point. For example if I am in medium sized passage and I feel no fin contact with the wall,or incidental floor contact,then all is well. But,if the passage gets smaller,and suddenly my contact goes up significantly,then I need to end the dive and exit. How often is this done? Conventional-wisdom will tell you rarely. Is it possible that you may never reach the skill to see that passage,could be? I used to be a pretty good baseball pitcher,but by the time I reached high school I didn't have the skill to advance,and had an ERA off the charts. Reality hit home,and Cooperstown will not be in my future.

Other conservation issues were brought up to which have relevance. Water quality is diminishing in Florida,and significant concern for Peacock because so many tree farms have been converted to row crops. Heck,even Ginnie saw spikes in nitrates unheard of. These are behavioral changes that you hope the local population can embrace,but we can't hold a rural family responsible for broken Goethite,we have to take responsibility.

I am being honestly truthful when I say that questions about the conditions of the caves are asked all the time,and this condition has contingencies on our future level of access

[User No Longer Around]

Is moving mud around really "damage" It is a sign of human traffic to be certain, but damage? Will it not gradually smooth itself out with time? I am not making excuses here but "damage" would be the missing knot on the right side of JBs cavern we all tied our primary off on. How about the three inch deep gashes in the caverns first restriction from the primary lines over the years. This will never be the same and I would call this damage, but disturbed silt?