Trashing the caves, do you not feel any shame?

[nakatomi]

Oliver, can we see the footage?

The video is embedded above, in case that doesn't work for you, here is the direct URL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ5AVwAuYjQ

[Sumper]

Ok, so I am ready to get yelled at but I believe that silt marks or any other signs of human activity in a cave cannot be avoided. Of course we want everybody to be careful and reduce their "footprint" but realistically it will only get worse unless you close the cave completely... which is not an option. And the reason it will get worse is because more time is passing and more people are entering the cave. And I don't mean yearly or an average but since day one when the first person discovered a passage until today, the number of people who have entered that cave continues to grow. It is a numbers game that cannot be avoided.

I have been caving diving since the early 90's and have laid new line and been in pristine caves that were recently discovered where there was no sign of human activity and many of these same caves are now routine dives for hundreds of divers a year, all of which have left some kind of mark. What do I think about it? It sucks but that's what happens when a cave is open to the public or to any kind of exploration. Of course we don't like to see handprints in the huge tunnels like hill 400 but I just expect that because that cave is accessible to thousands of divers a year. That is going to happen. I'm all for conservation and education but I believe these silt marks are unavoidable and will only get worse. If you think it is bad now, what do you think it will look like 50 years from now? We are only lucky enough to remember when those marks weren't there because we are relatively new in the era of cave diving exploration... 1970's to now? that is not a very long time in the big picture.

Here is another thought. Have you ever squeezed through an opening so small that you are practically buried in silt? How about trying to key your tanks, side mount or rebreather through a hole that just won't fit, meanwhile dragging scraping and banging and gouging the walls. What if you are an experienced diver and you find a new passage that is blocked by a small formation. Would you break that formation to get access to the new cave beyond? Of course you would. If you say no, you are either lying or have never experienced the thrill of laying new line or don't feel you want to. Is this all in the name of exploration? In sump diving, some caves we found were absolutely smooth with no tie off points so we would carry plastic stakes to bury into the silt to have a tie off. Some caves we have completely dug out passages with shovels to get access to new leads. What do you think about this for human footprint? Sucks huh? or does it? And this is from the highest level of experienced cave divers and explorers.

So bottom line? I feel that the unfortunate marks that you see in ginnie that were put there by inexperienced divers are really not the end of the world. Those areas are going to get marked up. Sure education and prevention is important to minimize damage but I am more concerned about the big picture of conservation. Ok cave police. Come and arrest me! My knee went into the silt!

[nakatomi]

I just thought very hard and found no reason whatsoever that would justify crawling around on the bottom of a passage that is 18' high.

[OFG-1]

I just thought very hard and found no reason whatsoever that would justify crawling around on the bottom of a passage that is 18' high.

Could it be that almost everyone insists on running the line along the bottom?

[Jim Clark]

I just thought very hard and found no reason whatsoever that would justify crawling around on the bottom of a passage that is 18' high.

Based on your video, it may be that the diver/divers blew out the viz with dpv's going upstream, then had to get on the line and swim out, which resulted in floor damage where the line is low. That scenario would account for much of the damage seen along the line even in large passage.

[nakatomi]

Could it be that almost everyone insists on running the line along the bottom?

True, however the average arm length is well above 2.5'

Based on your video, it may be that the diver/divers blew out the viz with dpv's going upstream, then had to get on the line and swim out, which resulted in floor damage where the line is low. That scenario would account for much of the damage seen along the line even in large passage.

I agree, that sounds like a possibility. Perhaps they blew the cave going in and made a lot of impact due to zero vis on the way out. While both of that is easily avoidable, it can probably happen.

However, and this I don't understand at all, one of them seemed to run the DPV on the way out (maybe in zero viz), into the silt, judging from the prop blade marks and scooter nose imprints.
Wasn't there a case this spring where someone hit the mud with a scooter in another cave on the Mill Pond? And blew the viz in that cave, lost the line, ripped off tie offs etc.?
There do seem to be some similarities, although they may just be entirely coincidental.

[TracyN]

That is the mess that was made in Hole In The Wall in the century tunnel. What a fine mess it was. We attempted to fix it by cleaning it up but it was beyond our level of expertise. It was a job for Edd.

[bamafan]

I heard some horror stories about this group. I was told they regularly came back with 200 - 500 psi and blew it off like it was nothing. If what I heard and have observed they won't be doing this long. They are a fatality waiting to happen. It is sad they have to destroy the caves just to commit suicide.

[bamafan]

Tracy so you and Mike found the mess in Hole? Does this sort of follow the saying "the smeller the feller".

[cloudboy55]

It would be interesting to compare the damage in cave systems that don't permit scootering with those that do.