Intro training seems to differ with agency and/or instructor

[Nitrogenius]

@LakeCountyDiver


in this thread you seem to complain about hassle you get with your Intro Card in comparison to the diving you do. If you are all good with the cert you have, I somehow do not get the issue it seems..
You state that you dive to your Interpretation of the Card and the Training you received, so all should be ok then, especially since you say there is so much Gold line to see for you..
Sorry for bringing the Money reason up, but that is the answer I usually get back home here in Germany from People somewhat "opposing" additional Training. Since you are located in Florida and therefore directly at the source a time issue would never have come to my mind.. Since I always have to fly to get to a decent caving Option (a very few limited expections in Germany disregarded but even theses mean a +7 hr one way..)


The remaining issue however is that if you intent to continue diving on thirds with your cert and two SM tanks you impose quite a liabilty burden on your fellow divers accompanying you. Also you might put your life insurance etc. in danger with your practise as you are diving outside of the limitations of your cert (even if you had been trained differently). The issue of this thread is that now there is public record oposing your Interpretation of the Training limitations..
Again I do not doubt that you are qualified for what you have been trained for.. A third Party would have to judge according to the Standards though..
Just my two Cents..

[vicp]

... It might be the already indicated "loose" Interpretation of SM being SINGLE tanks anyways.. However it should be clear to any instructor that 2 SM tanks in Cave daving can only be seen as Independent doubles and thus at intro Level sixths would have to apply..
... And this is what has apparently happend to the OP and it seems Vicp as well.. The isntructors allowing it and Training it..

I never said that I was not trained to sixths in doubles for intro. I was in fact - I started BM and finished SM. The only thing was that when we were done, it was brought up that there was no real consensus that SM actually constitutes doubles. It may seem like common sense that it should, but I have not been able to find anything in writing that it is.

As a matter of fact, I have been doing some more research on this topic. According to the NSS-CDS http://www.nsscds.org/trainingprograms, Basic/Intro is meant to limit penetration to "roughly 40 cu ft." For non-overfilled (standards you know - not everywhere is Florida) tanks, this would require at least a 120 cu.ft. single tank using thirds. Using double AL80s (77.4 cu. ft.) or LP85s (not over-filled) would give one 25.8 cu. ft. and 28.3 cu.ft., respectively, using sixths. So, is the intent of the thirds singles vs. sixths doubles rule, to force Basic/Intro divers to use huge singles, really huge doubles (would need to double up the 120s) or to, "God-forbid ", overfill one's tanks - this really does not make sense.

Also, they still list SM as "A specialty course level, designed to expose the experienced [read Full] cave diver to alternative cylinder and harness configurations when back-mounted cylinders are not appropriate or available." This seems to indicate that they have not yet acknowledged that people are getting all their cave training in SM, or at least have not yet adopted a policy to deal with this. Strict interpretation of this could lead one to believe that one needed to use BM doubles for initial cave training (as WAS actually specified by NACD - suspect that has changed with Rob Neto as training director), SM only a post Full-Cave specialty (as was told to me directly by Larry Green several years ago) and from that one could deduce that "doubles" meant BM and SM was not even supposed to be used for initial training - so therefore the sixths for SM would not apply as they don't exist!?!

I am not advocating unsafe or untrained cave or any other type of diving. My point is that the agencies need to get their act together to come up with some consistent rules and standards that people could understand, get behind, promote safety, and offer value for training dollars spent, rather than the current patchwork of self-serving nonsense.

[vicp]

IMHO you know you have been trained badly when you are reading your card to figure out what type of diving you can do.

I think the issue is more like other people looking at your card and telling you what diving you can do.

[nakatomi]

Victor, the rules are very consistent.
All major agencies allow basic cave training either in backmount doubles or sidemount, and have done so for years.
The limits for NSS-CDS, NACD, TDI and IANTD, just to list the one's I'm sure about, is sixths.
On top of that, NSS-CDS and NACD intro cards will expire, unlike for example the IANTD card.

The Cave sidemount specialty on the other hand is designed as a nomount/extreme sidemount class and requires underlying experience in diving at the full cave level, much like all the other specialties like DPV, surveying, staging etc..

[shellmoundal]

Upon treading this entire thread I am convinced that the newly certified diver is more interested in penetration, bragging rights, than he is in safety. The fact is that an Intro Diver has not had the OH ____ Moments , experience, of most Full Cave Divers. Rather you are on your 6's or 3rd's is not the issue. The safety part is what do you do when the OH ____ Moment arises?
This is why it is so important to practice your skills in the caves. Understand that panic is the killer when you don't have the experience of the Full Cave Diver. I dive with all levels and find that the least trained diver is the one that makes dumb decisions. Safety is what allows us to return to the cave for future dives. Too much emphasis is put on penetration rather than redundant training. Every Cave Diver is responsible for themselves, not the agency.

[vicp]

Victor, the rules are very consistent.
All major agencies allow basic cave training either in backmount doubles or sidemount, and have done so for years.
The limits for NSS-CDS, NACD, TDI and IANTD, just to list the one's I'm sure about, is sixths.
On top of that, NSS-CDS and NACD intro cards will expire, unlike for example the IANTD card.

The Cave sidemount specialty on the other hand is designed as a nomount/extreme sidemount class and requires underlying experience in diving at the full cave level, much like all the other specialties like DPV, surveying, staging etc..

Oliver, while I agree with you that it has been possible to get basic cave training in both BM and SM configuration for years - I did, I don't agree that what has been publicly presented is very consistent. When the manual says one thing, the instructor another, the training director something else, and the president even something totally different, you begin to wonder (happened to me). Then the instructor tells you not to worry as it will all work out - somehow. It just seems that there should be a better way to do business than in some third-world "baksheesh" way.

Maybe I am just to literal - do you think therapy would help?

[LakeCityDiver]

@LakeCountyDiver


in this thread you seem to complain about hassle you get with your Intro Card in comparison to the diving you do. If you are all good with the cert you have, I somehow do not get the issue it seems..

Thank you... Sorry there is a miss understanding is the text here. I could care less what my card says. I have said it several times, its just a piece of plastic. The only hassle I or other intro divers get is from here on CDF. The "C-Card" is the first this that comes up. Not the actual level of training. They hear "Intro" and begin telling you what your level of training is when in fact they don't really know what was taught. If you are trained by a competent instructor and dive your training then you are "Trained" to that level reguardless where it matches up to the current card levels.

As far as you saying there will only be an issue for other divers with me, you need to understand that I would never ask or encourage anyone to dive past there training. That is wrong and irresponsible for anyone to do that. 2 dives I dove 1/6ths and never made it past the 1000ft. We just did more shorter dives. In a dive group you dive according to the training of your least experienced diver. At least that's how I was trained in class.

[Nitrogenius]

In a dive group you dive according to the training of your least experienced diver. At least that's how I was trained in class.

What however do you expect to dive with a Full Cave Buddy?
Would you want to dive thirds then because you have been trained to dive thirds?
Even when a fellow Full Cave diver would recognize your skill, he would have the liability issue I mentioned, since you are trained to something for which no c Card and Standards exist..
An instructor might be in a different Position as he could always Claim a training dive.. but anyone else would have to stick to the Limits of the Standards for the C-Card..in my opinion..

[Nitrogenius]

this really does not make sense.

I completely agree, but the Standards are what they are and just one can not just decide not to adhere to it and claiming being in the Standards just because there is different answers on this.
And sorry claiming two sidemount tanks are single tanks (which would be the only Grey area to allow thirds in These) is IMHO a very weak Argument..

[roguediver]

On any forum its really a matter of perception rather than comprehension. Things can literately be taking in 2 different directions where the meaning of it could mean something else entirely.


Or trying to comprehend someone else's perception, from a computer screen.

Now that would be talent.