Cave Diving Police

[mbaker]

Sounds like somebody has been skipping their meds again.....

[Squirrel Girl]

I was once told that cave divers are all pretty much high-testosterone alpha males who think they know better than anybody about just about everything. When you get them in the same room, expect fireworks.

skip

Am I really?

[Garth]

Sounds like somebody has been skipping their meds again.....

...or maybe a reel was pulled after a month?

hehe.

This is why my arse is puckered while I'm in cave country.. (trying my best not to screw up).


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[Superlyte27]

No meds, just a refusal to tolerate bs as I see it. If you don't like it, avoid me.

[Randy G]

Good on ya.

[cerich]

So, I'm the chicken who "cussed" at you. (Yes, I know a lot of you are shocked)

Let's start from my perspective.
We watched as you and your buddy blazed through the keyhole despite my team exiting the cave. No courtesy there. But that's okay. It's not a rule or anything more of just a courtesy that exiting divers have the right of way. Then, we watched as the guy with the 20 year old pistol grip flashlights and orange wetsuit kneeled completely vertical in the mud for a solid 20 seconds. Silt goes everywhere. No real big deal there. Not really any danger, just thought it funny that you have no regard at all for the cave or even a shred of pride in your skill for the hobby. Then you push off the ground, and flutter kick over and over and over, but your buoyancy is so bad that you keep pushing yourself off the ground with your off hand, all the while kicking like a mule (flutter of course every time). I was certain that you were an open water diver who had borrowed gear, and I was terrified you were the next fatality at ginnie. I followed until gas really wouldn't permit me to stay any longer (stupid OC). I rushed for my buddy in the rebreather looking to tell him about you guys hoping he could find and save you, but so much time had elapsed right now, I wasn't certain he would know where to look. Of course as I think about it now, all he really had to do was follow the silt from the incessant bouncing off the bottom and the flutter kick.

I make it back to my line and I find the worst run line I've probably ever seen in my life. Not only was your primary line flapping in the current wildly but you actually crossed my line in 4 or 5 places (I'm not sure how this was even possible or necessary) but then you even tied onto the top of my placements, making it impossible to pull my reel without first pulling your reel. Dude, that just pisses me off.

So, lets recap.... Kneeling in the mud, bouncing off the bottom, pistol grip flashlights (try running a reel with them, maybe that's why the reel work was so poor), flutter kicking in the silt, failure to yield the right of way, failure to run a reel properly in just about every conceivable way.

You can understand how I was worried you shouldn't be there, and then B. Finding out you actually were cave divers, but just didn't know how to cave dive. You're right, I did cuss at you. I said, "either get more training and follow it, or stay the PHUCK out of the cave". I stand by that direction.

Go diving with anyone else. If they tell you that your abilities in the cave are up to par, tell them to get more training too.

And don't do like you did at the steps and try to explain away why you did what you did. The fact is, you suck at cave diving. No excuses man. You've been diving for 20 years but kneeling in the mud and flutter kicking? Running a reel the way you did? Get more training or a mentor. Hell, take another cavern class with a good instructor, because you REALLY don't belong in a cave right now.

Screw me, I read thru this and understand why he said something if everything said above is true...and I have no reason to believe it isn't.

Not long ago, I (and a few other cave instructors) were on a fun dive, on the way out we saw 4 incoming divers on the way in, two in rebreathers in the worst trim I have even seen displayed and two still horrible but better OC divers, their gear caught my eye because they were diving yoke regs...anyhow, the 4 when they saw us decided to crowd to the point of block the line, like they were scared to get away from it. Anyhow, between their crap trim and technique, their lack of coutesy I was somewhat shaking my head when we got out. Now at the surface one of the other instructors in my party tells me that that was a class, that the instructor had talked with him earlier in the day... and it was the instructor and his assistant on CCR. I made a comment only half in jest that I should wait for him and as he surfaces just smash him in the face...we all laughed and were making smart arse comments about how poor the class was. I don't think any of us were gonna say anything to this medium name instructor however.Not 5 mins after we were on the surface (we had some deco) the "team surfaces and we all listen to the debrief. It was "good job, did you see all the fish schooling at the entrance?" Seeing the look in my eyes, my party started to clear out, but not before I approached said instructor and asked him what the hell he was doing, pointed out how crappy the class was, then made the statement that if a class I was teaching was diving so poorly, with such bad situational awareness they wouldn't be in the cavern let alone cave, that I would have been embarrassed if another instructor saw me and my students performing so poorly. He looked at me and said "well maybe you would be embarrassed, I'm not". BTW , I waited until his students had left, I'm not that much of an ashole, SLyte I bet would not have..

The very worst part? We all talk about that day, but we don't say anything in public, because after all that arsehat will start a cave country war with us, and the carnival will just go on and on.

I'm embarrassed.

[JCGoodwin]

Sometimes it takes a stern confrontation to put things into perspective.
We are human and when someone is fearing for another diver it is stressful and a whole bunch of emotions at once.
Sometimes it is hard to not explode and sometime it is hard to not be offended but what really is important is that both parties come to understand the rational reason for the confrontation.
I have been on both sides of this and really learned a lot about myself and others.
Time to cool and calmly consider what went on and what was said then respectful conversation usually prevails.
I thank both sides for coming on and sharing.

One comment that is very concerning is when we make excuses when called out on anything one needs to be very concerned.
I have heard this happen before and it is never productive and very dangerous when talking about cave diving.
There are absolutes in the cave environment and the basics are paramount.
I have witnessed a exchange that until it reached the yelling stage the person would not listen but make excuses.
Please take the offer to heart when I was called out and sternly reprimanded it offended me until I calmed down and then I understood.
The person took the time to PM me and explain why he felt the way he did.
When people are passionate about a sport, support the efforts to keep systems open, love caves they can't help but care about other cave divers.

I have been challenged to be more confrontative about skills.
Mastery is misunderstood by many, but not lost on those who will seek it!
What we do is a labor of love being the best is a pursuit.
Either you get it or you don't.

JCG

[mdax]

I also rolled my eyes and laughed that of course it was SuperLyte...however after reading his observations if even one of his statements was accurate the original poster and his group deserved at least a tongue lashing.

As a community we don't "owe" anyone help on improving their skills, their instructors are SUPPOSED to either certify them at the skill level necessary or fail them. I don't think the instructor corp as a whole does a good job at failing people, well outside of gue that is (no gue training on my part).

I'd be REALLY interested in exactly who certified these guys and the level of their certification. I realize it will never be addressed, heck agencies tolerate "teaching" 10 year olds and abandoning divers in tight spaces. They are interested in money, not actual training to standards.

To the original poster, as a member of the cave community I don't owe you crap. I am not at all responsible to "help you improve".
How about you go pay a real cave instructor to improve your skills and return when you are capable? I'll bet you don't post your instructors name. You clearly need way more than mentoring. Why should anyone waste their time mentoring someone who won't take the yoke of getting themselves trained seriously?
It sounds like you are a cave diving disgrace and thankfully someone called you on it. You are screwing up OUR caves, get properly trained and raise your skill level or leave. If I saw such nonsense I'd probably cut your line and curse you out.

I can't believe I support superlytes position, however I did agree with skip one time also...the end must be near.

[floridabob]

Peter....

You absolutely know I believe in feedback. For me and from me. If you wish to assist others, that is noble and I genuinely commend you for that. I will say; however, you could probably start the offer to mentor better. Just my opinion there.

As you well know, I believe it to be the presenters/providers responsibility to be impactful, effective and encouraging with their feedback. You were probably one, maybe two.

I will say this for certain: Most would have driven off and cried about what happened; Some would have posted; Nearly all would have told the story. Few would have confronted the diver. For this, I applaud.

I feel it is every diver's responsibility to see that all enjoy the cave as it was found--or better. I do not approve of people that have no regard for the environment or their skill in it.

SO, I guess I have to vote that while I would never loan you a hammer, ride in your car or go hunting with you I do think you had the courage to share your opinion, own it and stand behind it....and offer support for someone that might benefit from it.

Oh, and you kinda....kinda...apologized for your technique.

All in all a good day, no?

Bob

[Garth]

I would have to agree with the decision to tell the divers where they went wrong or where they have to improve. I'm sure I will be in cave country with at least someone seeing me dive and I would hope that if you saw me mucking things up or not having good technique that you would say something. I respect my instructor Randy Thornton very much and am happy he took the time to debrief and critique us every dive.

My dive buddy Chris Ferrar and I have a lot to learn. We are very critical of ourselves because we know there is always something to improve on.

Heck I met Peter during my course and he was super nice. I can respect his passion for the sport and safety.

I think he did the right thing. Did he go about it in the right way? Who the hell knows I wasn't there. Maybe he should take an anger management class or better yet...

Maybe Peter needs some good Yoga or meditation?






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