School Sink closed.

[Tegg]

Current guides, property managers past and current, training committee have all been consulted ref the new plan. So your comment about a BoD member who hasn't dove the system 5-6 times has absolutely no merit.

Odd, I never was "consulted". I'll be checking with the other guides to see if this statement is true, other than myself... which I doubt.

No worries. I say that they should put in plans like they have for Cow. Let people dive it with students... It's not a fragile system, nor is it a special system with many things that can make the dive change instantly. Perfect for apprentice level divers and those who are doing their first DPV cave dives...

How can anyone make an "informed" decision about a dive site that they have not dove? Things such as requirements, conditions of the cave, and overall complexity are not things to be taken lightly, in my opinion. Agree?

If I was on the BoD and there was a "reduction in requirements" to dive an "advanced cave" (as described by the current management plan), then I would either want to dive the site a couple of times to inform myself of why the cave is "advanced" or I would abstain from voting. Again, this is what I would do because I feel that it is not a good idea to INCREASE liability exposure at a dive site without first seeing the true conditions myself.

Why not post the proposed changes here to get feedback from the membership? I'd be interested in seeing responses from those who have dove School Sink.

[Shadowjack]

["Odd, I never was "consulted". I'll be checking with the other guides to see if this statement is true, other than myself... which I doubt."

Just found out myself Joe. So that's at least 2 out of 10..

Eric

[Tegg]

I truly hope the BoD bothers to do the following things prior to voting on a new management plan for School Sink:

1. Consult their attorney about the idea of changing the management plan to reduce requirements while still involved in an ACTIVE lawsuit regarding said dive site.
2. Actually consult those familiar with the site such as guides
3. If a change to the management plan is going to happen, ensure that the new management plan can actually be enforced (since the local dive shop is not willing to assist in waivers and lock management).
4. Ask the membership and those who have explored the cave extensively for their opinion on the proposed changes.

Just my opinion. It's worth what you paid.

[MedCop]

This can be discussed in a civil manner and not start getting bent out of shape and accusing people of lying, keeping secrets, etc. The overall plan is in the discussion / draft stage, there has not even been a call for a vote. There is still a lot of leg work to do before a plan is put in place. I encourage all comments, opinions, recommendations on this site (as well as anything CDS related)

I responded to your comments in red / bold under yours...

I truly hope the BoD bothers to do the following things prior to voting on a new management plan for School Sink:

1. Consult their attorney about the idea of changing the management plan to reduce requirements while still involved in an ACTIVE lawsuit regarding said dive site.
This has been the plan the entire time. No changes to the current plan will be made if it will affect the current lawsuit. In fact the new plan will even be approved / read over by an attorney. I don't believe the old plan was ever approved by an attorney (I could be wrong but if anyone knows otherwise please let me know who the attorney was)
2. Actually consult those familiar with the site such as guides, instead of lying on a public forum.
Your comments about lying are out of line and uncalled for. You are trying to stir the pot and obviously cause problems with comments like this. A civil discussion can be had, even between all of us hard headed type A personality cave divers. I answered you via PM about the guides, but for the record, I was under the impression they had all been contacted. I am personally following up on this but again you are out of line to accuse anyone of lying!
3. If a change to the management plan is going to happen, ensure that the new management plan can actually be enforced (since the local dive shop is not willing to assist in waivers and lock management).
This is part of the reason the plan is being reviewed as there is no enforcement, check, accountability of the current plan.
4. Ask the membership and those who have explored the cave extensively for their opinion on the proposed changes.
I do know people are being asked, I do know that the current site director, past site director, and training commitee have all been discussing this. Like I mentioned I was under the impression that all guides had been contacted already. If they have not they will be I assure you. Things do take time, it takes time to contact people, get responses, discuss the issue, etc. We are working as quickly as we can on this and do appreciate all feedback good or bad.

Just my opinion. It's worth what you paid.

[Tegg]

This can be discussed in a civil manner and not start getting bent out of shape and accusing people of lying, keeping secrets, etc. The overall plan is in the discussion / draft stage, there has not even been a call for a vote. There is still a lot of leg work to do before a plan is put in place. I encourage all comments, opinions, recommendations on this site (as well as anything CDS related)

I responded to your comments in red / bold under yours...

I hope you're right.

Just found it odd that you stated the guides had been contacted, when I know that is not true. (made phone calls to verify this)

When is the planned vote for this change going to be held? The CDS Conference is only a month away... it would probably make sense to have the vote at the normally scheduled BoD meeting then, right?

This would allow for the BoD to gather opinions from multiple sources, and even allow for them to dive the site to get a better understanding of what they are voting to change. It would also allow for the membership who attend the meeting to be asked for input, since I know of fellow divers familiar with the site will also be in attendance of the conference.

[MedCop]

All answerd in red / bold...

I hope you're right.

Just found it odd that you stated the guides had been contacted, when I know that is not true. (made phone calls to verify this)

I was under the impression all the guides had already been contacted, I will admit when I am wrong and should not have assumed they were all contacted. I know it was discussed to contact them for imput.

When is the planned vote for this change going to be held? The CDS Conference is only a month away... it would probably make sense to have the vote at the normally scheduled BoD meeting then, right?

We would like to have the sink open for the convention with the new plan in place. If for some reason a new plan is not in place / approved by the BoD then the old plan automatically reverts back in place (I believe the cut off date / revert date is May 24, but would have to check the minutes to be sure)

This would allow for the BoD to gather opinions from multiple sources, and even allow for them to dive the site to get a better understanding of what they are voting to change. It would also allow for the membership who attend the meeting to be asked for input, since I know of fellow divers familiar with the site will also be in attendance of the conference.

I actually discussed with other BoD members today about diving the system myself. I feel this is a great idea and currently have a motion on the table for the BoD to approve these dives. Approval has to be granted by the BoD since the site is technically closed.

[Tegg]

Personally, I think there can be a good revision of the management plan for School Sink, so long as the BoD takes the time to consult the guides and if possible, visit the cave for themselves.

------------

Here is what I sent the BOD in email:

--

Here are my opinions as stated to Jim, I just wanted to restate them again, so that the BoD can be sure that it is my opinion:

1. I do feel that the guide program as it exists, could be removed, if other proper limiting factors are used as a replacement.

2. DPV training in a cave like School Sink is akin to DPV training in a SantaFe river cave on a bad day. I think it would not benefit any students or instructors.

3. DPV use in School Sink is beneficial for experienced DPV cave divers in order to reach certain parts of the cave and/or continue exploration.

4. If training must be allowed (as a compromise), it would be with an instructor who is experienced in the cave, and the student must be in the Full Cave course.

5. I would love to see the Abe Davis requirement, but that will be tough to state to the membership if newly minted divers are allowed to dive the cave with their instructor. So, I am torn on this one.


The management plan should specifically state that this cave is completely different than the majority of caves in Florida. The tidal influence is strong and can change a decent 20ft vis dive with low flow, to a 0 vis high current siphon dive in a matter of minutes. (I have a story about learning this the hard way)

I feel that the CDS has decent instructors, and that they should be able to make a good judgement call about what students to take to School Sink and which students should not go there. I would encourage all BoD members who have not dove this cave to try and take the time to do so. It is a very different cave, but in its own way it is an awesome cave. Personally, I love the challenges and the rewards presented by this cave system.

I hope that all of you take the time to reach out to the rest of the guides and gather their opinion prior to voting on this change.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.


Joe Tegg

[fno]

Joe, great thoughts on the subject. I have sent an email to the BoD with my opinions of the proposed changes and some history of the management plan changes of past as it is important to understand how we got to where we are today with this site. I encourage others to chime in and let the leadership know how they feel about the access policies for School Sink. I also want to encourage any and all that want to discuss the proposed changes with me to contact me privately as well. It is no secret that I consider School Sink an advanced cave dive and persons wanting to dive there should be accomplished cave divers prior to going into this environment. Further to that, the guides program was implemented to that purpose of acclimating divers unfamiliar with the site to a point where they could conduct dives there on their own with less risk.

[Jay]

WW is an advanced dive. No question about it. Viz, tidal influence, silt, haloclline all the things you read about that screw the pooch for divers, WW has it all and can change very quickly.

[Ken Hill]

After reading this thread, my personal take is some of the individuals are wrong by reading into what the CDS is trying to do.

Hypothetically let's say a frivolous lawsuit is launched against a not-for-profit organization who relies on volunteers to manage their property. If those volunteers rely on paid employees to carry that management plan it would make sense for the not-for-profit organization to review their risk analysis from time to time. Sometimes reviews are in order to make sure that the people that assist the organization as well as the organization itself are protected.

To make assumptions that the School Sink closing has something to do with the Guide system, the difficulty of the dive or any issues with in water activity may be inaccurate.

What's not hypothetical is the CDS and it's property manager is in the middle of serious litigation. I don't encourage others to "chime in." Just the opposite! Speculation is helpful to no one other than the plaintiff.