Traverse dives (from the Divers doing stupid things thread.)

[jj1987]

So people would fake it for a week long class but throwing in a fitness prerequisite....that....well, that would fix it? At least that part.

Do I have that right--training doesnt fix it but a prerequisite to training would?

Obviously I'm oversimplifying your stance, but I believe that to be the basis of your thought: training won't keep people from breaking rules but it could keep them healthy.

Take a look at my last post, I specifically mention scuba not having the resources to track yearly medicals. I do think it should be more prominently mentioned during training, and I think a basic swim test, 2-3 mile jog, and breath hold wouldn't harm anything. I know a few people who have increased exercise or even quit smoking to meat GUE's health & fitness requirements, so I do have first hand accounts of a positive change.

[floridabob]

Last, I think we should stop writing these medical deaths off as a freak event. Some agencies don't even require ANY minimum level of fitness to take a class! To my knowledge, many of the cave agencies don't even include fitness in their lectures. That's about as silly as realizing divers are running out of gas by using half their gas going in, and not teaching rule of 1/3rds.


Like I said, I was grossly simplifying your post and the above was what I referenced. Which you have solidified in your last post saying people have made changes based on fitness requirements for training...but earlier you said the following:

Maybe I'm off base here, but I don't think the diver involved in the peacock incident would have done anything different with an extra certification card on the dash. Doing a visual jump isn't a training issue, even a cavern diver knows better, it's a complacency issue.

Anyway, my only point was I find it odd you think training will fix THIS but not THAT and that complacency will cause THAT but not THIS.

Again, I dont exactly disagree that training is not the panacea. Just a piece.

Lack of training allows ignorance.

Bob

[Omisson]

Last, I think we should stop writing these medical deaths off as a freak event. Some agencies don't even require ANY minimum level of fitness to take a class! To my knowledge, many of the cave agencies don't even include fitness in their lectures. That's about as silly as realizing divers are running out of gas by using half their gas going in, and not teaching rule of 1/3rds.


Like I said, I was grossly simplifying your post and the above was what I referenced. Which you have solidified in your last post saying people have made changes based on fitness requirements for training...but earlier you said the following:

Maybe I'm off base here, but I don't think the diver involved in the peacock incident would have done anything different with an extra certification card on the dash. Doing a visual jump isn't a training issue, even a cavern diver knows better, it's a complacency issue.

Anyway, my only point was I find it odd you think training will fix THIS but not THAT and that complacency will cause THAT but not THIS.

Again, I dont exactly disagree that training is not the panacea. Just a piece.

Lack of training allows ignorance.

Bob

I'm not saying health-fitness isn't a factor, it's just not one we could currently reliably use to determine its overall aggravation factor.

The problem in doing this sort of analysis is that DAN does not have a break down of this sort of data in the record they've kept, which is the only solid reference for scuba accidents we have.

If you take the microcosm of Florida cave deaths, statistically speaking, the data is useless, as the sample pool is too small for extrapolation. There is no statistically significant amount reliable data to break out the info you'd need.


Further, once you get into real analysis of health accidents- the data tends to skew with age, so a perfectly fit 65 year old is far more likely to stroke or coronary than a 40 year old with 20lbs of belly fat. Just the mechanics of temporal biology.




Dan-O

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2

[nakatomi]

I think the question is, do you exceed what you've been trained to do when you do a simple traverse at the intro level.

The core issue is the lack of respect for the rules and the importance of training.
If someone breaks the rules at the intro level, what do you think this person will do at the Full Cave Level?

It's not about the (possibly) simple traverse, it's the fact that it's against the rules. Just as multi-staging, DPV, ultra-sidemount, surveying, etc. are beyond the limitations of fresh full cave diver.
Someone who will not respect his/her Intro limits, will be less likely to get training and is more likely to break rules in the future.

My NSS-CDS workbook says, training starts with your commitment to respect the rules and limitations (or something to that extent).

[Kelly Jessop]

The core issue is the lack of respect for the rules and the importance of training.
If someone breaks the rules at the intro level, what do you think this person will do at the Full Cave Level?

.

Interesting thought. So could one say that breaking rules at the intro level could facilitate complacency? I am sure there will be many arguments on that point,but I would have to agree in that I have seen people who have been successful in not following a cave diving tenant,continue to push it,probably due to the rationalization,it only happens to the other guy. Perhaps James' point #2 and #3 are inter-related?

[Sludge]

Jim Fixx's death can testify to that.

I know a few people who have increased exercise or even quit smoking to meet GUE's health & fitness requirements, so I do have first hand accounts of a positive change.

Jim Fixx was the most famous runner in the world, but years of heavy smoking damaged his heart beyond repair. When he died he was younger than I am now.

Just sayin'.

[GLM]

And Keith Richards is still alive and laughing at Jim Fixx

[shellmoundal]

You stay on a continuous line. If you entered the cave from the eye then you ran the line from the eye to the gold line. You always exit on the line you dove when you entered. You never know what may be around the corner. You exit on the same line you entered.

A traverse (at least all the traverses I am aware of) involves planning, setting and cleaning up. An intro diver is not trained for that.
Also an intro diver may not navigate, especially not jump off the main line.
So with that in mind, let's look at the Eye/Ear in the Devil's system as an example, how is an intro diver entering through the Eye supposed to exit through the Ear without breaking his training limits?
He would need to either set up a line from the Ear during a previous dive, which would be setting up a traverse, or he would have to get off the line and do a visual jump to the cavern/surface exiting through the Ear.
Either way, it's not within the scope of training. It may work, or it may not. I can't really say because I'm not intro anymore and not taking chances

[Greenwood_60]

If an intro diver wants to go from the Ear to the Eye... run your line the entire way, and pull it going back out. It's great practice. If you can't safely do that at intro, you shouldn't have an intro card.

[floridabob]

Im not disagreeing with anything training or safety related. Or fitness related.

My only point was it seemed like it was being said that training doesnt matter/wont fix it. Then we turned around and said that a prerequisite TO training would help. I thought the logic was weak. Thats all.

Fitness is good. Training is good. No questions there.

Bob